Monstermash

I recently purchased a set of Schwalbe Ultremos in 28mm to use with my 23mm (inside diameter) rims. I installed the front tire (by hand/no tools) and was mounting the rear tire when the bead on the front came off the rim and the tube burst. So I removed it and re-mounted it with less pressure at 50psi. I installed the rear with the same psi and left the bike over night. The next morning I inflated them to 80psi before I left for work and when I came home I had two flat tires and both beads were delaminated where they came off the rim.

So of course I called Schwalbe and was told that the 28mm tires were not recommended on a 23mm rim. This is after I called them the previous week and was told it wouldn't be a problem. This is not a thread bashing Schwalbe. They very quickly offered me warranty replacements for both tires but I'm a bit confused. Are 28mm tires really too narrow for a 23mm rim? I have been doing a lot of research and it doesn't appear that they are. There are a lot of wide rims available now that are running 23mm and 25mm tires on without any issues. Zipp Firecrest come to mind and there is someone at a local shop running 25mm tires on them without issues. I even asked the manager at the shop I do most of my business with and he didn't think it should be a problem.

Does anyone here have any input?

kingfishr

what size tube did you use? If the tube was 18/28 it may simply have grown to large, like an over inflated balloon, maybe a 28/32 would be safer. When the front tire came of the bead was the tube intact and burst afterwards? Otherwise I would suspect the tube burst and blew the tire of the rim...

Doug5150

Does not sound as if the tires were incorrect for the rim width.... And the tube size shouldn't matter, being contained inside the tire.
Exactly what model of Ultremo was it? some have steel beads while others have kevlar, and kevlar has a lot more problems than steel.
Can you post any pictures of the damaged tires & rims?

rm -rf

I have 23c GP4000 tires on a 25mm outside width HED rim. When inflated, they measure 26.5 mm wide. It works great. (I run 80-85 psi front, and 100-105 psi rear.)

These very wide HED Ardennes Plus rims are 25.5 mm outside width, and 20.9 mm inside. Do you really have 23 mm inside width rims? Is this a vintage rim, or new? Vintage rims don't have a "bead hook", they have a straight wall on the inside of the rim, and can't take high pressures. But those rims are narrow, I think.

"both beads were delaminated" The tires both had a split/separation at the bead?


Inflate a tube by itself. It will balloon to a huge size without popping. An undersized tube can't blow a tire off the rim. It might be more likely to fail, splitting a seam or around the valve. But that won't push the tire off the rim.

gregf83 

Sounds like a tire defect. Cyclocross tires go up to 32mm and I believe they just go on standard wheels.

rpenmanparker 

A 28mm tire is even fine on a 19mm rim and certainly also on a 23mm rim. Did you call at lunch time?

SlowAndSlower

I once ordered some tires and they came folded up. Unboxed them and proceeded to blow out several tubes trying to mount them. Learned I needed to let the folded tires lay out flat for a day or so before mounting them. Edit: I should have mentioned they were steel beads

popeye

The frame may be the limiting factor not the rim and you may need to deflate the tire to get them on/off the bike.

Monstermash

The beads are Kevlar and the rims are not vintage. They are really 23mm inside diameter. They are also designed to run tubeless if one were so inclined. That is actually why I first called Schwalbe. I called to ask if I could run the Ultremo 28mm tubeless on my wheels if I used Stan's or some other sealant because my wheels are designed to run either way. I was told it wouldn't work but would be ok if I ran them with tubes on my tubeless wheels.

Here is a photo of the bead de-lamination.



Here is a photo of the tires on the bike with only 50psi. I know, it's not technically a road bike. I posted this in this section because the tires are designed for the road.

hueyhoolihan

i might send that pic to the manufacturer, but it looks to me more like a slice of flashing coming off and, IME, is of no consequence. and unfortunately, even if true, doesn't necessarily explain why your tires are blowing off. but then again all i can see is what's in the pic.

i'd double check my rim tape to verify that it's not interfering with the bead/rim fit.

i might also look into (google) that rim and see if anybody else has had a similar problem. good luck.

if it turns out that the tire is not defective, i'd put it on a normal width rim and see where that leads me.

Monstermash

I did send the photo to Schwalbe. They are replacing the tires for me. There is no rim tape. The rims are designed to be tubeless.

pdedes

Make sure when you are mount i the tire that you aren't pinching a bit of inner tube between rim and tire bead

Monstermash

Thanks but I've mounted hundreds of tires and I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing. I'm sure that is not the problem.

Nachoman

User error.

hueyhoolihan

good to hear, it will be interesting to see how the new tires do, assuming they are the same model and size. must be frustrating.

rumrunn6

very cool bike, good gallery but would like to see closeup of spoke nipple at rim

BigJeff

What is the make & model of the rim/wheel?

Monstermash

I see there are trolls here in this section of the forum too. Seriously, why bother to post something like this? You have no clue about my experience nor any indication that they were mounted improperly. So I guess you think that after hundreds of tire mounts and having mounted the Clememnt tires on these wheels before the Schwalbes and then again after with ZERO issues that somehow I'm to blame for this issue?

I see why you have over 13k posts. You just troll around and post but have no real intelligent input. Go away troll!

as for the rest of you that have been trying to help.... Thank you! Your input is much appreciated!

Psimet2001 

I'd agree with you, but now with more and more tubeless rims it requires a bit more concentration.

If the tubes have long rips along the sidewall then the failure was containment based - as you have noted.

Containment can only be compromised if there is a direct failure of the tire (sidewall, or bead) or if the bead isn't seated correctly in the rim. That's it.

This is not the first Schwalbe Ultremo clincher tire I have seen with a sidewall or bead failure within short order of beginning of use.

Also - no: a 28 is nowhere near too large for a 23mm wide rim. We have been running cross tires on "standard width road rims" (19-23) for decades and cross tires have varied in sizes up to 36mm although current standard is 33. Whomever told you that either doesn't ride, know what they're talking about or just simply didn't know what to tell you other than "yup - we f'd up. These are s***y tires."

Psimet2001 

Because it's funny and not troll like at all. Nacho is good people. You went to great lengths to say you were an expert and it couldn't possibly or even remotely be your mounting technique - that would make anyone with a sense of humor want to immediately post that it has to be user error. It's not as funny when we have to explain it though...

These are bicycles.

Monstermash

The wheels are Crank Brothers Iodine 2. Here is a pic but there is no nipple at the rim.

Monstermash

Lol! Great response. But Schwalbe didn't say the tires were to large, they said they were too small for the rim diameter. They told me the minimun size tire that should be used on a 23mm rim was 37mm.

Monstermash

Well maybe nacho may have considered adding a "LOL" or an emoticon after his comment. I don't know him and when someone posts something of this nature sarcasm doesn't translate well in text. And I only went to "great lengths" because someone had already asked if it was improper mounting. I was responding to that post.

Sorry if I offended anyone but maybe consider how something may be interpreted before posting something that may be considered insulting.

Doug5150

Are these the Iodine or Cobalt wheels?
If so, you might want to stick to using either tubeless-only tires, or to using only steel-bead tires then.

In the cross-section diagram on the page below, it looks like Crank Bros shortened the rim edges (and reduced the size of the edge hooks as well)....
Revealed: Crank Brothers 2014 Iodine and Cobalt Wheels - Mtbr.com

,,,,And kevlar-bead tires have ALWAYS had the issue of the bead stretching more than a steel bead will. If you stick to using steel-bead tires, they might stay on okay.

Monstermash

Thanks Doug. I did see that link you posted when I was doing research on these wheels. The Clement tires I had mounted on these wheels before I decided to use the Schwalbes also have a kevlar bead and I have had zero issues. They are actually mounted on the wheels now.

As an interesting side note, as I have been following this thread today I removed one of the Clement tires and mounted a 25mm Hutchinson Equinox tire on it and inflated it to 100 psi with no issues.