Shimano entry level drivetrain
06-05-15, 12:00 PM
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I think its more like saying, my Sora bike shifts better than my 105 bike than some random car analogy.
And yes, they've both been setup correctly. I also briefly owned a 10-speed Tiagra bike. It shifted well too. Basically like my Sora bike.
I think you are falling for the marketing on this one.
And yes, they've both been setup correctly. I also briefly owned a 10-speed Tiagra bike. It shifted well too. Basically like my Sora bike.
I think you are falling for the marketing on this one.
06-05-15, 12:01 PM
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Alias530,
I think you should throw in the towel. I am hopeful you are not narrow minded as your posts suggest and I believe you to truly feel you are helping all those future entry level buyer by stopping them from buying entry level drivetrains. You are also showing your lack of experience in an area you show to have none but have formed an opinion. You are starting down a path that would be analogous to a man describing what child birth is like. You have no frame of reference and no experience with current product to make such statements but you are entitled to make them.
I think you should stop before your credibility goes further south on this topic and respectfully say nothing more on it. You have voiced your opinions as we are all entitled to and many of us are simply against it with different experiences, some from those who have actually rode the groupsets in question.
Maybe one day, I too will have a better drivetrain to compare with but for now, I would rather ride than continue this dialog.
Best of luck,
Frank
I think you should throw in the towel. I am hopeful you are not narrow minded as your posts suggest and I believe you to truly feel you are helping all those future entry level buyer by stopping them from buying entry level drivetrains. You are also showing your lack of experience in an area you show to have none but have formed an opinion. You are starting down a path that would be analogous to a man describing what child birth is like. You have no frame of reference and no experience with current product to make such statements but you are entitled to make them.
I think you should stop before your credibility goes further south on this topic and respectfully say nothing more on it. You have voiced your opinions as we are all entitled to and many of us are simply against it with different experiences, some from those who have actually rode the groupsets in question.
Maybe one day, I too will have a better drivetrain to compare with but for now, I would rather ride than continue this dialog.
Best of luck,
Frank
06-05-15, 12:02 PM
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...and I'm mostly okay with that viewpoint. It's pretty snobby and probably should have been more obviously stated as an opinion. But I can see how you might view 6800 as mid-level and 5800 as the lowest you'd consider - it's just not a 'fact'.
You might double-check you own reading comprehension. He didn't accuse you of saying that 105 was trash...but rather that everything below 105 was trash. He accurately quoted you.
You might double-check you own reading comprehension. He didn't accuse you of saying that 105 was trash...but rather that everything below 105 was trash. He accurately quoted you.
06-05-15, 12:07 PM
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Think about it... you're coming up on a hill, full gas, if you shift beforehand you're going to sit there spinning with no power actually reaching your wheels. If it's a MASSIVELY steep hill out of nowhere, sure, shift beforehand. But if it gradually becomes a hill and your momentum gradually drops, shift one cog at a time and you'll get up it the fastest.
06-05-15, 12:07 PM
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You hit one of the main benefits right on the head, shifting under load. You practically can't shift above a 0% grade on lower end groups without breaking something or at the very least hearing a nasty sound. You can mash your guts out and shift however the hell you want with Dura Ace and it never skips a beat.
How does a shifter break a chain? They do not come in contact. At the time I had the 5700 group, I had SRAM x9 & x7 mixed on a different bike, and the x9 rear shifting blew the 105 out of the water as far as responsiveness and handling loaded shifting. The x5 you mention is a lesser group, but my son's bike with it has operated fine for a year and a half, with no broken chains or spectacular failure. Much of the issues you describe sound to me like "poor setup" and "user error", if I were to classify.
06-05-15, 12:08 PM
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I said that you said that everything below 105 was trash. Which you did. Repeatedly.
Then you come out with "I'm just saying 105 is not as good as Dura Ace" as if that was your so-reasonable point all along and nobody gets you.
06-05-15, 12:09 PM
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Alias530,
I think you should throw in the towel. I am hopeful you are not narrow minded as your posts suggest and I believe you to truly feel you are helping all those future entry level buyer by stopping them from buying entry level drivetrains. You are also showing your lack of experience in an area you show to have none but have formed an opinion. You are starting down a path that would be analogous to a man describing what child birth is like. You have no frame of reference and no experience with current product to make such statements but you are entitled to make them.
I think you should stop before your credibility goes further south on this topic and respectfully say nothing more on it. You have voiced your opinions as we are all entitled to and many of us are simply against it with different experiences, some from those who have actually rode the groupsets in question.
Maybe one day, I too will have a better drivetrain to compare with but for now, I would rather ride than continue this dialog.
Best of luck,
Frank
I think you should throw in the towel. I am hopeful you are not narrow minded as your posts suggest and I believe you to truly feel you are helping all those future entry level buyer by stopping them from buying entry level drivetrains. You are also showing your lack of experience in an area you show to have none but have formed an opinion. You are starting down a path that would be analogous to a man describing what child birth is like. You have no frame of reference and no experience with current product to make such statements but you are entitled to make them.
I think you should stop before your credibility goes further south on this topic and respectfully say nothing more on it. You have voiced your opinions as we are all entitled to and many of us are simply against it with different experiences, some from those who have actually rode the groupsets in question.
Maybe one day, I too will have a better drivetrain to compare with but for now, I would rather ride than continue this dialog.
Best of luck,
Frank
Wouldn't you agree that "too much" is always "enough"? If you buy more than you think you need, you're less likely to find yourself wishing you had gotten more? I always buy at least one tier above what I think I need for this reason. Snap On and Hilti tools as a regular old home DIY-er, Dura Ace as a non-racing enthusiast, etc. And you know what? I never wish I had more and nothing ever breaks. Sure, Black & Decker tools are cheaper, but if I have to buy the same damn thing 5 times, it costs just as much AND leads to frustration and wasting time going to the store.
If you buy what you think you need (let's use Sora as the example) and you later wish you had smaller steps between gears (because you only have 9 gears instead of 11 with 105) you can either deal with it or sell your bike at a huge loss and buy the 105 equipped bike you should have to begin with. You're out less money by buying the better stuff up front AND you got to ride the better stuff all along.
06-05-15, 12:09 PM
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Not those who prioritize weight over function. Or those that want more cachet due to name recognition.
You seem like a smart guy. I can only assume you are bored and just having some fun on the Internet right now and don't believe everything you are typing.
You seem like a smart guy. I can only assume you are bored and just having some fun on the Internet right now and don't believe everything you are typing.
06-05-15, 12:11 PM
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There is nothing junk about a $0.99 McDonald's hamburger. You are simply saying that they are beneath you. Just as you are saying Sora is beneath you. You are welcome to that opinion, you just shouldn't expect hardy harrumphs of agreement.
This is not true. It does not shift as smoothly, and you may hear a noise, but nothing breaks. Once you know how it handles, it is incredibly easy to simply lighten the load for the shift and continue riding. And I can hammer the Centaur under any load I can muster, without any need to ease up, and never have noise or a failure.
How does a shifter break a chain? They do not come in contact. At the time I had the 5700 group, I had SRAM x9 & x7 mixed on a different bike, and the x9 rear shifting blew the 105 out of the water as far as responsiveness and handling loaded shifting. The x5 you mention is a lesser group, but my son's bike with it has operated fine for a year and a half, with no broken chains or spectacular failure. Much of the issues you describe sound to me like "poor setup" and "user error", if I were to classify.
This is not true. It does not shift as smoothly, and you may hear a noise, but nothing breaks. Once you know how it handles, it is incredibly easy to simply lighten the load for the shift and continue riding. And I can hammer the Centaur under any load I can muster, without any need to ease up, and never have noise or a failure.
How does a shifter break a chain? They do not come in contact. At the time I had the 5700 group, I had SRAM x9 & x7 mixed on a different bike, and the x9 rear shifting blew the 105 out of the water as far as responsiveness and handling loaded shifting. The x5 you mention is a lesser group, but my son's bike with it has operated fine for a year and a half, with no broken chains or spectacular failure. Much of the issues you describe sound to me like "poor setup" and "user error", if I were to classify.
@ comparing the strain a child can produce to that of a grown male
06-05-15, 12:22 PM
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This really escalated...
This is what should have happend-
Alias530 should have initially said "Yes, 105 is mid-range when you look at the actual shimano product lineup, but I personally would never ride a bike with anything less than that"
We should have said, "Well, that's a shame because other stuff works too and it gets new/less disposable income riders into the sport"
He then could say, "Agree to disagree. The very idea of Claris upsets me. Have a nice weekend."
And we are all smiles and handshakes.
Instead, he says anything less than 105 has no right to be on a bike and people who ride those groups will inevitably regret it, and everyone freaks out. Just another day on the forums.
This is what should have happend-
Alias530 should have initially said "Yes, 105 is mid-range when you look at the actual shimano product lineup, but I personally would never ride a bike with anything less than that"
We should have said, "Well, that's a shame because other stuff works too and it gets new/less disposable income riders into the sport"
He then could say, "Agree to disagree. The very idea of Claris upsets me. Have a nice weekend."
And we are all smiles and handshakes.
Instead, he says anything less than 105 has no right to be on a bike and people who ride those groups will inevitably regret it, and everyone freaks out. Just another day on the forums.
06-05-15, 12:23 PM
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We aren't going to convince one another... just saying that there's some value in getting more than you think you need so you don't find yourself itching for an upgrade right away. It makes more sense from a financial and time-conscious standpoint. Hassling with selling and re-buying sucks.
06-05-15, 12:24 PM
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You're just getting confused by your own argument because you keep deflecting since your original statement of 105 being the bottom rung Shimano road group due to claris/sora/tiagra not counting is a ridiculous statement that isn't actually defensible.
06-05-15, 12:24 PM
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claris/sora = apex
tiagra/105 = rival
ultegra = force
dura ace = red
06-05-15, 12:26 PM
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Would I expect DuraAce to perform better in a high pressure situation than my 105? Yeah, probably. But I never found a situation of high enough pressure that even my old 2005 Tiagra ever let me down. Oh, except that one time when my front derailleur broke mid-ride. But then, the same thing happened to Peter Sagan's Di2 DA at Paris-Roubaix this year, so I'll call that a draw.
06-05-15, 12:28 PM
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Right, no one disagrees with that premise. It's just that some people literally cannot buy anything better than a $400 road bike, not just because they can't rationalize it or don't want to explain it to their wife, but because they can't afford anything else. Those people don't harbor illusions that a DA 9000-equipped Madone is really no better a ride than their bike, but it seems to me that you're raising the collective ire around here by essentially saying those $400 bikes with their tourney/claris groups are below the minimum floor of what is an acceptable bike to buy.
06-05-15, 12:51 PM
#91
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105 *is* a low end group. Claris/Sora don't even count, that's what you find on like Walmart bikes. Tiagra/105 are low end, Ultegra mid level, Dura Ace high end.
11 speed 105 is less than $400 online for the whole group.
Dura-Ace Di2
Dura-Ace
Ultegra Di2
Ultegra
105
Tiagra
11 speed 105 is less than $400 online for the whole group.
Dura-Ace Di2
Dura-Ace
Ultegra Di2
Ultegra
105
Tiagra
But seriously, as a bike machanic I have had to work with all of this stuff. I was very surprised when I first put together new Claris and Sora bikes. In the past Sora worked but it was clunky and sloppy. Not anymore.
Last edited by hairnet; 06-05-15 at 12:56 PM.
06-05-15, 12:52 PM
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If you're having trouble grasping my statement, let me revise:
105 is the lowest end 11 speed groupset on the planet. When buying a new bike halfway into 2015, I think it's foolish to buy anything less than 11speeds, as they are a dying standard.
AND
Of bikes that an enthusiast would actually want to own, 105 is the lowest one should consider.
06-05-15, 12:57 PM
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Look at any category of anything on the planet, the top tier stuff costs WAY more than the stuff just below it. Snap On tools, Bugatti Veyron, the TITAN video card for PC gaming, Wilson Combat 1911 pistols, and on and on. These are not much better than the 2nd best, but they often cost 2-3x or more. That doesn't mean that if you go down the line a few more steps that those won't be noticeably worse. I'm not arbitrarily making these statements, I own both of the groups in my example (5800 & 9000)!
Another part of this massive cost increase for the top of the line is that massive R&D costs need to be recouped. Shimano works hard to create Dura Ace, then makes Ultegra with the same specifications, just lower end/heavier/cheaper materials. Plastic bushings instead of metal ones (in the shifters), steel instead of titanium (cassette cogs), aluminum instead of carbon fiber (cassette carriers and derailleur cages), etc.
I'm not going the other way in the Emonda thread, I'm saying there is a point of diminishing returns. Good carbon with Dura Ace is a very good bike, slightly better carbon with Dura Ace is an even better bike. The SL model frame is absolutely the mid level frame and the SLR is the top end. I never said SL was high end, just that it's a nice frame for half the cost of a slightly lighter one. Taking a complete bike, 2/3lb is negligible. Your tire/saddle choice could swing your bike +/- 2/3lb.
Another part of this massive cost increase for the top of the line is that massive R&D costs need to be recouped. Shimano works hard to create Dura Ace, then makes Ultegra with the same specifications, just lower end/heavier/cheaper materials. Plastic bushings instead of metal ones (in the shifters), steel instead of titanium (cassette cogs), aluminum instead of carbon fiber (cassette carriers and derailleur cages), etc.
I'm not going the other way in the Emonda thread, I'm saying there is a point of diminishing returns. Good carbon with Dura Ace is a very good bike, slightly better carbon with Dura Ace is an even better bike. The SL model frame is absolutely the mid level frame and the SLR is the top end. I never said SL was high end, just that it's a nice frame for half the cost of a slightly lighter one. Taking a complete bike, 2/3lb is negligible. Your tire/saddle choice could swing your bike +/- 2/3lb.
06-05-15, 12:58 PM
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Right, no one disagrees with that premise. It's just that some people literally cannot buy anything better than a $400 road bike, not just because they can't rationalize it or don't want to explain it to their wife, but because they can't afford anything else. Those people don't harbor illusions that a DA 9000-equipped Madone is really no better a ride than their bike, but it seems to me that you're raising the collective ire around here by essentially saying those $400 bikes with their tourney/claris groups are below the minimum floor of what is an acceptable bike to buy.
I feel like it's implied that if you are some level of enthusiast, you would ignore the lowest level component tiers that are geared towards people who tool around with their kids at the park or commute to work on. We're talking about people who ride out of desire or passion, not necessity or to make their kid laugh.
The same way someone who wants to play video games on a computer isn't going to use the onboard video that the computer comes with. It's implied that that isn't even a consideration. That's how I see it anyway...
06-05-15, 12:59 PM
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You must be fine with food out of a can then too? Some people can't appreciate nice things, that doesn't mean that nice things aren't better. I have a Springfield TRP and it's MUCH nicer than some of the cheaper options. If you can't TELL the difference, I'm actually jealous, you saved a ton of money. But to say there ISN'T a difference is ignorant.
06-05-15, 01:09 PM
#97
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I appreciate nice things, and I can tell the difference.
I have DA 7800 on my carbon bike, it is very nice.
I replaced the 105 5500 on my steel bike with Tiagra 4600 and felt it was an upgrade.
The only significant difference between the two groups is the front shifting: DA is much smoother, Tiagra goes clunk. Both get the job done though.
I've had a couple of rides on DA 9000 and it's nice, but not significantly better than 7800 so I'll wait till something breaks before I buy it.
I have DA 7800 on my carbon bike, it is very nice.
I replaced the 105 5500 on my steel bike with Tiagra 4600 and felt it was an upgrade.
The only significant difference between the two groups is the front shifting: DA is much smoother, Tiagra goes clunk. Both get the job done though.
I've had a couple of rides on DA 9000 and it's nice, but not significantly better than 7800 so I'll wait till something breaks before I buy it.
06-05-15, 01:10 PM
#98
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I feel like if you are on a bike forum, it's implied that you are at least some level of an enthusiast, otherwise you'd be reading some generic "buyers guide" that Google led you to.
I feel like it's implied that if you are some level of enthusiast, you would ignore the lowest level component tiers that are geared towards people who tool around with their kids at the park or commute to work on. We're talking about people who ride out of desire or passion, not necessity or to make their kid laugh.
The same way someone who wants to play video games on a computer isn't going to use the onboard video that the computer comes with. It's implied that that isn't even a consideration. That's how I see it anyway...
I feel like it's implied that if you are some level of enthusiast, you would ignore the lowest level component tiers that are geared towards people who tool around with their kids at the park or commute to work on. We're talking about people who ride out of desire or passion, not necessity or to make their kid laugh.
The same way someone who wants to play video games on a computer isn't going to use the onboard video that the computer comes with. It's implied that that isn't even a consideration. That's how I see it anyway...
It boils down to you saying that if someone is serious about cycling, they're better off waiting to buy a bike with 105/Tiagra when they can afford it rather than buying the Sora bike they can afford now. I don't think that's good advice.
06-05-15, 01:12 PM
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I never mentioned Tiagra initially, you did. I've said several times that Tiagra AND 105 are low end, Ultegra is mid level, and Dura Ace is top. Claris and Sora are not what "cyclists" buy, they're what people buy when all they want is to commute to work at 10mph or tool around on bike paths, or run errands and save gas. Thus, they should not be considered. The same way that someone looking to circuit race a car isn't (shouldn't) going to consider a Nissan Versa.
If you're having trouble grasping my statement, let me revise:
105 is the lowest end 11 speed groupset on the planet. When buying a new bike halfway into 2015, I think it's foolish to buy anything less than 11speeds, as they are a dying standard.
AND
Of bikes that an enthusiast would actually want to own, 105 is the lowest one should consider.
If you're having trouble grasping my statement, let me revise:
105 is the lowest end 11 speed groupset on the planet. When buying a new bike halfway into 2015, I think it's foolish to buy anything less than 11speeds, as they are a dying standard.
AND
Of bikes that an enthusiast would actually want to own, 105 is the lowest one should consider.
I think you're confusing "cyclist" and "enthusiast" with "elitist poseur". Also, 11 speeds are not necessary. That's just silly to think that. Groups will run the gambit of various speeds for years to come. That is unless your jaded and consider anything below certain level simply doesn't count.