Bob Dopolina 

Incorrect.

A company like 3T will either have an office in Taiwan with a person whose job it is to oversee production at their various vendors or they will work with a trading company, like us, a have the designated person there do this for them.

Either way, no-one orders 1000 carbon bars sight unseen. That's just a recipe for disaster.

An if you think that a knock-off product at 20% of the normal price is EXACTLY the same thing I have some LV bags I'd love to sell you...

Bob Dopolina 

Do your research.

Bob Dopolina 

I 100% guarantee they'll tell you they are a manufacturers and that they own their factory and all the tools. Try to find a China seller that doesn't make that claim.

And that is part of the problem; it's so hard to know for sure EVEN IF YOU GO THERE! I was given a tour of a frame factory and was told by those I was meeting with that they owned the factory only to find out later that this wasn't the case, that they were, in fact, just another trading company.

Or, they could be a factory that makes some products but not all. We work with one carbon vendor that makes rims, handlebars, stems and saddles but not frames. If they were a bit shady they could offer us frames that they themselves were buying from another factory.

Have a look at Alibaba and you'll see these 'factories' that have DOZENS of frame models to choose from. With each model having 3-5 molds for various sizing that means they claim to have upwards of 100 open molds just sitting there in the hopes that one day someone will place an order.

That's impossible.

These are just trading companies who gather up spec/drawings/photos from as many factories as they can find and toss them up on a website or on Alibaba waiting for someone to place an order. Once they receive the order they themselves place an order with the respective factory.

Or it could be a combination where I have a factory and my brother has a factory and my cousin and his sister have a factory and we all have access to each other's molds.

Any way you look at it transparency and accountability are really the things that are hard to come by in China. This isn't just true for the bicycle industry, it's true across all manufacturing sectors from toilet seats to telephones.

If you're really interred in this stuff go to uTube and search "Brits get rich in China". Pay close attention to who gets paid. The guy doing the kitchen countertops is, by far, my favorite.

bt

I know you are trying to be funny but they're actually good wheels.

bt

got any good detective questions I can stump them with?

Diablito

I'm serious, I posted earlier in the thread that my next move is carbon disc wheels. Light bicycle is going to be the first company I look at, thanks for the heads up.

BoSoxYacht

Is that what you use? If so, exactly what hoop?

Jiggle

I am doing a little, now that I've heard these unfounded claims from you. Not saying dogmatically they aren't true, but you are doing a poor job of backing up what you say.

tagaproject6

What kind of scientific data do the Chinese knock-off brands that you buy, have, to ensure there is actual QC? Aside from the cosmetic similarity, how do you truly know about the quality control steps to ensure that they perform in the same manner as the brands they are copying? I mean, besides your own?

bt

I just received a set from them. dt swiss 240 hubs and sapim straight pull spokes. these are the wheels....

carbon 700C 25mm wide road rim clincher 35mm deep U shape tubeless compatible basalt braking surface Light-Bicycle

couple hundred miles so far and no problems.

BoSoxYacht

thanks for your reply.

I'm interested in that exact hoop, so please keep us updated on your experience. I'm pretty sure those are the same hoops my builder is loaning me to test, but I'm not positive.

bt

will do

Jiggle

That post was referring to his claims that Light-Bicycle fabricated their webpage showing them manufacturing their own rims.

To answer your question, there is no scientific data. I don't use them on long descents so that removes a common carbon clincher failure mode. It is pure cowboy.

Bob Dopolina 

How are they unfounded? I am relaying what I was told during a meeting about another matter involving this company, specifically, as well as a few others.

I left the door open to being corrected since I, PERSONALLY, haven't verified this information.

You will say pretty much anything to simply counter what I say. It's terribly predictable.

Bob Dopolina 

Honestly, no. It just isn't possible.

Even if you go there and physically stand in the middle of a factory, there is no way of knowing who OWNS the factory. You would have to start digging into tax records etc. good luck with that.

Having said that there are a lot of companies (and even major brands) who don't OWN the factories that make their stuff. Many partner with a vendor (or several) and work with them on design and manufacturing.

A perfect example of this would be Continental tires and the Taiwanese vendor they use (sorry, can't share that one) for their OE which are made in Taiwan (while their higher end stuff like tubulars are still made in Germany). Continental provided specific equipment, materials and methods to the tire vendor that we used excluslively for the Continental branded tires. So although Continental didn't OWN that factory they had formed a tight partnership and had a strong hand in all aspects of production.

Another example would be Cannonndale. They found a very good alloy vendor here and sent people to train this vendor to produce frames that meet Cannonndale standards using their materials and techniques.

The difference is that many of these Chinese Trading Companies that are all over Alibaba and the like, pose as manufacturers when they are, in fact, just sourcing open mold products and pretending that they designed and manufactured them. How many DengFu or HungFu frames have you seen on other websites? Can you even count?

This is the crux of the issue. Even for people directly involved in the industry. It is sometimes very difficult to know who you are actually dealing with.

Willbird

And to be honest this is just not s Chinese thing, open a McMaster Carr catalog.....most products are unbranded....they do not claim to mfg them though. My own employer makes entry doors, we mfg and ship product to some mfg, it is totally unbranded....our name cannot appear anywhere, we use special glass with no etching. The end seller wants to "own" the product and be free to find another vendor to replace us. If you were in a store that sold both our branded product, as well as the third party if you have an eye for detail you can tell they are the same source for some parts anyway (one clue, fake wood grain is almost like a fingerprint). We do not even use the third party name internally, we use a meaningless code word (a synonym for wind).

WhyFi

You don't see how this is different? You're giving examples of product that's obtained through McM-C, a 100+ year old company, or through brick and mortar stores. Both of these channels offer concrete provenance (even if it's not readily apparent to the public) and accountability.

Willbird

Do I see it as "different" ? Well McMaster , or the infamous jc Whitney came to mind too, list products. As does the co we call "wind"(close)...they do stand behind them to a degree , but what if something happens like the REI bike frames that failed ? I see some similarities....REI tried to dodge liability, jc Whitney (if they still exist) might, as might mac master for all I know, none of them mfg the product.

Now if a co is outright lying about being the mfg sure that is different....but my point is that it is not uncommon here even for several co to sell unbranded products. I love McMaster but if I used or use a LOT of an item from them I seek alternate sources to save $$, but they are great to find an item, order it today, have it show up the next weekday ups without paying for expedited shipping even.

Willbird

Chinese suppliers can provide material certs, msds.....they have to to sell to some markets.

WhyFi

Okay, so you don't see how it's different. Cool.

Jiggle

Ok, sport. Here is your post on the subject. No where is there an open door for correction. You state as if it is fact. Good to see you backtracking. You should pay better attention to what you assert.

Aww, poor guy.

WhyFi

Dude, you have a post immediately after his "open for correction," comment.

Jiggle

Hardly clear. Being a direct competitor with these Chinese companies, he knows what he's doing.

Bob Dopolina 

You try so very, very hard.

SpeshulEd 

Good thing someone knows what they're doing, this thread is a disaster.