3/15/2007 - Please read before posting in any A&S thread!

[Brian]

We're working on some guidelines. If anyone wishes to start a thread about VC issues, there is a forum just for that. What we do not want to see is every A&S thread hijacked and turned into a VC debate. There is no easy solution here.

Seems fine with me. Recommend that you also put any ghoulish gloating/speculating over deaths of cyclists due to alleged improper technique be put in this subforum also.

I'm hoping that a thread like that can be discussed without dragging the VC debate into it. To be very honest, I hope to keep threads that are informative in A&S, and the rubbish will go into VC. And that's not to say that I have an opinion one way or another about vehicular cycling, only that those threads quickly go south, and any useful information is tossed aside in favor of bickering.

[Daily Commute]

So, is VC discussion banned from A&S? Is there to be a policy statement on this at the top of the forum? If the plan is simply to move all VC threads to the new sub-forums, as such threads emmerge/degenerate, that seems like a lot of work for the mods.

And if it is, is VC-contrary discussion also banned?

We're working on some guidelines. If anyone wishes to start a thread about VC issues, there is a forum just for that. What we do not want to see is every A&S thread hijacked and turned into a VC debate. There is no easy solution here. . . .

This will be the key. The last time some members tried to create VC-free threads (the short-lived "AC" movement), they started throwing rhetorical bombs at other members they didn't like, and then tried to hide behind a sympathetic mod when anyone responded.

To bring up the main topic of disagreement--bike lanes--will praise be allowed in the main forum while criticism is banned?

Maybe the best way is to save the VC section for any thread that "deteriorates." If people play fair, and abide by the forum guidelines on "harassment" and "respect," the thread can stay in the main section. But if people on either side start throwing pro- or anti-VC attacks, then it gets moved here.

[Bruce Rosar]

... I hope ... the rubbish will go into VC. And that's not to say that I have an opinion one way or another about vehicular cycling, only that those threads quickly go south, and any useful information is tossed aside in favor of bickering.

I don't suppose there's a button that any of us could 'push' when viewing a pro/anti VC post (i.e., I love/hate bike lanes) that would move it over to a shadow/clone thread in the VC sub-forum?

[Bruce Rosar]

Maybe the best way is to save the VC section for any thread that "deteriorates." If people play fair, and abide by the forum guidelines on "harassment" and "respect," the thread can stay in the main section. But if people on either side start throwing pro- or anti-VC attacks, then it gets moved here.

That's an interesting idea. I don't know how much trouble it is to move a thread, but it seemed pretty painless from my vantage point.

[derath]

Ah yes. The "I don't agree with this subject so we will just sweep it under this (subforum) rug"

Just illustrates my earlier point that A&S has fallen beyond hope.

-D

[Brian]

Ah yes. The "I don't agree with this subject so we will just sweep it under this (subforum) rug"

Just illustrates my earlier point that A&S has fallen beyond hope.

-D

No, you've missed the point. If you want to debate the pros and cons of VC, there is now a place for that. Or are you suggesting that it's not possible to discuss a subject in A&S without bringing up VC?

And it's no trouble at all to move threads.

[edit] We could just play king for a day. What do you propose as a solution? I guess that question is for all the critics out there.

[Bruce Rosar]

Do the respectfulness guidelines, such as:

We expect our members to show respect for others. Respecting their person, their views, their time and their opinions, and their belief systems ... even if you disagree with them.

apply to the new VC sub-forum? I ask now because of some posts that just appeared in a new thread down there.

[chipcom]

This will be the key. The last time some members tried to create VC-free threads (the short-lived "AC" movement), they started throwing rhetorical bombs at other members they didn't like, and then tried to hide behind a sympathetic mod when anyone responded.

Do I have to cite the words I wrote, multiple times, that specifically stated that vehicular cycling practices were perfectly acceptable? Do I need to cite the times that I reminded your 'enemies' of that fact? Come on DC, stuff like this is a good example of what ignites discussions into flamefests. Come on dude, I figured you to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

[Brian]

Do the respectfulness guidelines, such as:
apply to the new VC sub-forum? I ask now because of some posts that just appeared in a new thread down there.

You guys are never going to get along, and the VC arguments will always be just that - arguments. So until ALL of you can figure out how to get along, we'll separate the wheat from the chaff.

Does the VC forum need a disclaimer like P&R? Does everyone need to be told not to enter, unless they have thick skin?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

And if it is, is VC-contrary discussion also banned?

What does the Constitution say about this? Which amendment covers the right to babble incessantly?

[derath]

No, you've missed the point. If you want to debate the pros and cons of VC, there is now a place for that. Or are you suggesting that it's not possible to discuss a subject in A&S without bringing up VC?

And it's no trouble at all to move threads.

[edit] We could just play king for a day. What do you propose as a solution? I guess that question is for all the critics out there.

I guess it is more in how the mods implement this. My concern would be in the "sorta VC" areas.

There are a number of facets to the VC debate it seems. I say it that way because I have never actually read anything VC related. That being said I have still been accused of being a VC advocate.

Let's take the following example, because this thread has come up before. Person A posts a "how should I have handled this traffic situation" topic. Lively discussion ensues. Several known VC advocates chime in on "lane position" tactics etc. Now "I" use these same tactics, although I never knew them to be consistent with VC principles. So what happens now? something VC related has been uttered. Does it get deleted? The post moved?

The underlying problem here isn't VC, at least IMO. It is a fundamental lack of respect between certain members on this forum. I respect your attempt to separate the players, I just don't think it will work.

Sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense. I gotta go put my daughter to bed so I am typing quickly.

-D

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Does the VC forum need a disclaimer like P&R? Does everyone need to be told not to enter, unless they have thick skin?

No, I just think a solution might be an announcement from the mods that the "respect card" can only be played so many times by individuals trying to shut down any and all criticism of their sacrosanct beliefs and dogma.

[Brian]

The underlying problem here isn't VC, at least IMO. It is a fundamental lack of respect between certain members on this forum. I respect your attempt to separate the players, I just don't think it will work.

You are correct. And it may not work. But I suspect that we will still see an improvement.

[kalliergo]

To be very honest, I hope to keep threads that are informative in A&S, and the rubbish will go into VC.

This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."

[bigpedaler]

This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."

Brian, send kalliergo the nuts & bolts about setting up a forum website -- it sounds to me like he's volunteering to moderate it!

( a bit irreverent, yes, but i'm serious.)

[tomg]

stay with the topics, don't take it personally, and list your bicycling oriented convictions! i thought this site was for bicycle advocacy and inclusion! move on!!!
tomg (+vc, ride with the law on your side)

[Brian]

This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."

You'll just need some software and a host, and you're good to go. Of course, you could just stay here and not take things out of context. It's your choice.

[kalliergo]

You'll just need some software and a host, and you're good to go. Of course, you could just stay here and not take things out of context. It's your choice.

In what way am I taking things out of context, Brian? Did you, or did you not, express your desire to direct "the rubbish" to the newly-created VC subforum?

In what context could that possibly be seen as other than insulting and demeaning?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."

Try ChainGuard on Yahoo groups. You'll like it there. Some of your pals from BF can show you around.

[chipcom]

This suggests to me that another, perhaps competing, cycling discussion site may be called for -- one where proponents of vehicular cycling, together with their ideas, will not be treated as "rubbish."

Please grow up. With all due respect, do you know what a post like this reminds me of?

[Brian]

In what way am I taking things out of context, Brian? Did you, or did you not, express your desire to direct "the rubbish" to the newly-created VC subforum?

In what context could that possibly be seen as other than insulting and demeaning?

I'm hoping that a thread like that can be discussed without dragging the VC debate into it. To be very honest, I hope to keep threads that are informative in A&S, and the rubbish will go into VC. And that's not to say that I have an opinion one way or another about vehicular cycling, only that those threads quickly go south, and any useful information is tossed aside in favor of bickering.

[edit] In other words, debate VC in the VC forums, and leave it out of the rest of the A&S discussions. It only leads to arguments.

[N_C]

I'm very serious. Look at it from the perspective of a non-member who visits to the forums and is looking to research advocacy and safety issues. What do they see? A handful of members bickering, calling each other names, hijacking threads with VC arguments, and generally being disrespectful to each other's opinions.

Joe and I discussed this, and he was more than happy to have me lock A&S for a few days. But that would not be a long term solution. So look for a change here soon.

Ok, so? You obviously have not been a member here that long. It has been this way for a long, long time. And you're just now doing something about it? Too little, too late as far as that goes. It is just something we have all gotten used to. The un-written rule has always been if you don't like it, don't read it & don't post.

[N_C]

I see the solution is a new VC forum. Good look with that. I doubt I'll post very often in there, if ever. I have a feeling others will be the same way.

I do suggest you give a clear & concise definition of what a VC thread is. I have a feeling people will continue to post threads in the regular A&S forum, with out using the word VC, but it may inadvertenly or unintentionally refere to VC & that knowing the mods. & these new rules you're going to strictly enforce that person will get into trouble for it. Eventually people will be afraid to post here as a result. So you had better be damn clear as to what a VC thread is.

More then likely to cover my ass I'm probably going to have to start all my new threads with the words, something to the effect: I am not sure if this is a VC thread or not. If it is, I apologize & throw myself on the mercy of the admin./mods. If this thread is thought to be about VC please move it to the VC forum & advise me on the matter, if you would.

I think that may be a good idea, even if the thread is as far from VC as you can get.

[chipcom]

Ok, so? You obviously have not been a member here that long.

Go easy on him Brian, sometimes you just gotta laugh!

[Brian]

Go easy on him Brian, sometimes you just gotta laugh!

Some members seem to exist here solely to stir the pot. I have gotten enough positive PMs, as well as thank you PMs, that I feel this was a good decision. If some members have a hard time getting their head around certain concepts, so be it.