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Dura-Ace Radial Lacing

Old 07-21-07, 10:42 PM
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Dura-Ace Radial Lacing

Does anyone here have their Dura-Ace hubs laced radially? I just bought some and got them in yesterday. In one of the boxes, there was a warning to not lace them up radially, which is what I was going to do with the front.

If it seriosuly a problem if it's radially spoked, or is it just because one hipster lacede up a rear wheel radially and sued Shimano? I'd really like to get this all sorted out before I build them up.

Thanks.
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Old 07-23-07, 04:38 PM
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They're forged right?

Sheldon talks about radial lacing on one of his pages. He said that CNC'd aluminum shouldn't be, but forged aluminum can be laced radially. Maybe you should call a tech guy at Shimano and ask them why.
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Old 07-23-07, 06:01 PM
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Dura Ace high flange hubs are spun, not forged. Spinning is a technique whereby the metal is rotated on a lathe and a shallow, dull tool actually pushes the metal into place -- something like how your hands move clay on a potter's wheel. It removes many stresses and creates a very high quality piece of metal, much better than almost any CNC machining but not with the specific benefits of actual forging.

That being said, they aren't really supposed to be radially laced. I've worked to collect almost 180 high-end hubs that broke at the spoke holes from wheel stresses (all to study the actual issues around radial lacing) and the only case I've ever seen or even heard of where radial lacing was used on a broken high flange Dura Ace hub was where a car hit the wheel. It was pretty ugly and appeared as if a car wheel had actually driven over the wheel, so I wouldn't blame it on radial lacing. I actually have found very few cases of broken radially-laced wheels. Campy C-Record high flange hubs had a proclivity for it, but more because the metal was crappy and because the spoke holes were drilled too close to a flange edge that was itself radiused too much to save a couple grams. That whole era was not exactly Campy's high point in component quality. I've also seen low flange wheels break out (in 36-hole lacings, in particular) where several spokes in a row just tear loose like a perforation in a piece of paper and just unzip the whole side of the flange -- this comes about because there is so little metal between spoke holes and once one gives way, it takes the rest with them. But Dura Ace high flange hubs are pretty solid and unless you really abuse them while riding or in an accident, they should be OK. (By abuse, I mean hard jumps off curbs, major potholes, car accidents, etc. -- those will wreck almost any hub and radial-laced hubs are no exception.) If you want to abuse your equipment, expect it to break. This is a track forum, so I assume that you are building for track use -- in that use there is very little risk of a front wheel failure. There isn't any point in using radial lacing on a track rear.
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Old 07-23-07, 07:13 PM
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Thanks for the input 11.4, and yes, the wheel is being used for track ONLY. The only issue that I'm facing is whether or not the wheel will hold while doing 35mph diving a steep banking.
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Old 07-23-07, 08:58 PM
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I have had until recently Dura Ace 7600 32 holes, laced radial to wienmann bladed spokes on assos tubular rims so far no issues.

3 guys I sponsored raced a 1/2 a season on them and no problem. Sold them to a racer who i help out and no issues from him.


Remember as I stated in previous post about wheels, it is who builds them.
S/F,
CEYA!
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Old 07-24-07, 07:59 AM
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i have a 36hole hb7600 i got used that was laced radially and filed towards the inside of the hub for bladed spokes. if you spin it you can see where the flanges aren't perfectly straight anymore, they are a little distorted. I relaced 1 cross to a different rim so I could use the old spokes and i didn't have a problem with it for about 4 months of street riding...I avoid most potholes and don't jump off of curbs that often though. I wouldn't worry about radial lacing it...mainly because of 11.4 and Ceya's replies.
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Old 07-24-07, 09:57 AM
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32 hole 7600's laced to Deep-V's here and I have had no problems despite hitting a few unforeseen smallish potholes AND a shutter coming down pretty heavily and sitting directly on my front wheel this evening. I had to (carefully but) forcefully pull to get it out. Most of the impact was sucked up by the tire, but it still sort of made me worried about the wheel. Put 20 kilos on smooth roads after that and not a hint of wobble or bump

I've only had them for two months and generally don't ride too rambunctiously....
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Old 07-24-07, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21
Thanks for the input 11.4, and yes, the wheel is being used for track ONLY. The only issue that I'm facing is whether or not the wheel will hold while doing 35mph diving a steep banking.
Doing a 12.5 - 13.0 sec 200m isn't going to be the worst thing a hub usually sees. The wheel doesn't take the worst of the abuse in pretty much any riding on the track unless you race at speed into the judges' stand or you t-bone somebody and flip badly. It's the curb-hopping, potholes, sewer grates, doorings, etc. that tend to nail wheels. Be sure you aren't using an outrageously high spoke tension of course, and that the rim isn't already damaged by prior misuse. Otherwise, I'd just ride it.

Since someone mentioned them, however, I would be quite cautious about slotting Dura Ace hubs for bladed spokes, however. Most people don't do it right. The slots need to be axial (pointed towards the axle, not tangential to the edge of the flange) and need to be cut very smoothly and straight. They also need to stay away from the edge of the flange, so they need to cut inwards from the spoke hole, never outwards. These days there are good aero spokes that pretty much eliminate the need to use traditional bladed spokes.
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Old 07-24-07, 06:56 PM
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Building your front wheel with 3 cross also means you can use the same sized spokes for both wheels. Only one box of spokes to order !
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Old 07-24-07, 07:21 PM
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I get spokes for very cheap and the guy building my wheels (my coach who's been building wheels for 30+ years since he was 12) has a spoke cutter, so too long of spokes isn't an issue.


Besides the thread topic, does anyone know the difference between DT Swiss Champion spokes in the old red/white box compared to the newer green/black/white box?
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Old 07-25-07, 06:13 AM
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Old 07-25-07, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21
Besides the thread topic, does anyone know the difference between DT Swiss Champion spokes in the old red/white box compared to the newer green/black/white box?
They should be identical. However, DT varies somewhat the length of the 2.0 mm section at each end and you might find them somewhat different. This doesn't really matter too much.

The labels you have are both recent enough that they should have the same elbow length, but note that DT for a while changed the elbow length to facilitate machine building (the length increased slightly). If your spoke doesn't seat tightly in the spoke hole when put in position, you should get some DT spoke washers and use them under the spoke heads. Otherwise they tend to twist around a lot, break sooner, and chew up the spoke holes more. Dura Ace track hub flanges tend to be relatively thin and usually are benefited by the spoke washers anyway.
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Old 07-25-07, 07:25 PM
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Ill agree to that but will also add that on track its a problem only associated with 15guage spokes, not 14 guage. And is also a problem more common on the non drive side of road wheels. On a 9/10 speed road wheel the non drive side has WAY less tention than the drive side and the spoke heads do rock around a bit damaging the hub and eventualy breaking the heads. A bunch of years ago my shops wheel guy started building road wheels with radial non driveside and in the case of early 9speed shimano hubs DT washers also. I do this also. Non of those wheels have come back with broken spokes.

Single sided track wheels are offset and will have less tention in the non driveside but is no-wear near the ratio of a road wheel. And if your into tieing and soldering your track wheels you wont have any issues with spokes breaking off..............


.............unless you have a pedal jammed in there.
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