Experience with Peter White Cycles

[Butterthebean]

Peter White definitely has a reputation for being an excellent wheel builder, so I figure I'll call him. I tell him I need a new rear wheel for my lugged steel Nishiki. I tell him that I want it to be pretty stout and that my frame has 126mm spacing, but I can easily put a 130mm wheel on there.

He asks me if I would cold set the frame to 135mm, I say I'd rather not. So he says he can't help me!!!

I ask him why he can't build me a good wheel with 130 mm spacing, and he says he doesn't have time to explain that to me right now. WOW!!! That felt incredibly patronizing. I mean, I hate being talked down to in the first place, but especially by someone who I'm about to give my hard earned money to.

I realize that he could build me some 48 spoke tandem rear wheel with 135 or 140mm spacing, and I guess that's what he wanted to build, but surely he could build a good 36 spoke 130mm wheel that will be solid. That's all I wanted, but apparently he would not do that.

He didn't even bother to ask me how much I weigh, how much the bike weighs, what kind of tires I use, what kind of riding I do....nothing. The hole conversation didn't last 2 minutes. We didn't discuss anything else but rear spacing.

I guess my point is, I would have appreciated it if he had talked to me a little more and we could have shared a little more information before he just decided he couldn't help me. It felt like very bad customer service to me...something I am sick to death of.

[CHenry]

I have spent a fair amount of my hard-earned money with Peter, on at least two wheelsets and a bunch of lighting gear. Peter is very good at supplying tourer and randonneur bicyclists' needs (and tandems, too), but I don't think he has the same interest or experience with bikes or riders outside those very specific areas. I am sure he has built a race wheel or two, but that just doesn't seem to be his main business. And except for some vintage gear--older XTR hubs and headsets, he seems to have supplies of Shimano MTB hubs from a couple of generations back--vintage gear meant for older road bikes doesn't seem to be a big part of his business.

He probably doesn't want to carry many 130 hubs because most of his customers are ordering 135-160 hubs. Stocking 126 size, now obsolete, is something for which there is even less demand. Getting a suitable hub and building a wheel he can warrant the same as one built with new components is more work and more risk for the same money.

I can't say for his attitude you report, I have always found him to be polite and thorough and helpful.

[Butterthebean]

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He probably doesn't want to carry many 130 hubs because most of his customers are ordering 135-160 hubs. Stocking 126 size, now obsolete, is something for which there is even less demand. Getting a suitable hub and building a wheel he can warrant the same as one built with new components is more work and more risk for the same money.

A very good point. He obviously has his niche and prefers to stay within that. I respect that.

[Torchy McFlux]

Bike mechs can be crusty when approached without deference or gifts of beer.

[cascade168]

I've met Peter and he IS a tad eccentric. But, he was very helpful to me and his wife, who does alot of the "business" end of his shop was a pleasure to meet.

He used to build complete bikes but he has pretty much got out of that business to concentrate on the wheelbuilding. His shop out in the backwoods of Hillsborough, NH is pretty cool and he moves about a million miles a minute. He's a very driven guy, I think. When I went there we chatted for a short bit about a possible Rivendell build, picked out some wheel components, and a mirror. He was very helpful about the mirror and had some good advice. To make a long story short, he kind of hinted that our time was up and he had to get back to work. I can totally appreciate that, but I can see where someone could misinterpret his demeanor and think he's rude when it's really that he just wants to get back to work. So, he's looking out for his paying customers if you look at it that way.

I've had many customers in the shop that just want to chew on your ear all day and that can just kill your productivity. This is a tough problem. You want to be nice and try and cultivate good customers, but sometimes it can be very challenging.

It also could be that he was just having a bad day. We all have our "moments" and I am no exception. Sometimes you are best to cut people a little slack. Peter has a pretty good business and an excellent reputation and that's pretty hard to do by treating people poorly. I don't ever remember any complaints listed against his work. Except for this thread, I've never heard a bad word about him - and he's had a LOT of exposure in the business over the years. I think he's basically a nice guy and you just caught him a bad moment.

[bellweatherman]

Bike mechs can be crusty when approached without deference or gifts of beer.

No. Poor customer service can never be justified.

[cascade168]

--vintage gear meant for older road bikes doesn't seem to be a big part of his business.

He probably doesn't want to carry many 130 hubs because most of his customers are ordering 135-160 hubs. Stocking 126 size, now obsolete, is something for which there is even less demand. Getting a suitable hub and building a wheel he can warrant the same as one built with new components is more work and more risk for the same money.

I can't say for his attitude you report, I have always found him to be polite and thorough and helpful.

I actually bought some 126mm Shimano 105 hubs from him, and for a good price. I think he looks for good deals, buys the biggest quantity he can, and when they're gone, they're gone. I can remember him having a lot of older road components at one time.

[bellweatherman]

He asks me if I would cold set the frame to 135mm, I say I'd rather not. So he says he can't help me!!!

I ask him why he can't build me a good wheel with 130 mm spacing, and he says he doesn't have time to explain that to me right now. WOW!!! That felt incredibly patronizing. I mean, I hate being talked down to in the first place, but especially by someone who I'm about to give my hard earned money to.

If Peter White told you he couldn't build a good wheel that has 130mm spacing, then maybe he can't build a good wheel. Period. Maybe he should've been upfront and said that he doesn't stock 130mm hubs, so therefore he doesn't build wheels with such hubs. I know one thing. I'm not calling Peter White for my wheel building needs now, 135mm or otherwise.

[Torchy McFlux]

No. Poor customer service can never be justified.

Who cares about justification? Most people are a pain in the ass. I know I am.

[maddmaxx]

If Peter White told you he couldn't build a good wheel that has 130mm spacing, then maybe he can't build a good wheel. Period. Maybe he should've been upfront and said that he doesn't stock 130mm hubs, so therefore he doesn't build wheels with such hubs. I know one thing. I'm not calling Peter White for my wheel building needs now, 135mm or otherwise.

It seems a little harsh to flame the man based on 1 single sided report. His reputation must be based on something don't you think.

[late]

Harris Cyclery has Quando 126 hubs. But if you can find NOS Shimano hubs
on Ebay, that would also work.

One thought... an older Nishiki is nothing special. Might make more sense to start saving towards another bike; and get a cheap wheel to hold you for a while.

[Retro Grouch]

If Peter White told you he couldn't build a good wheel that has 130mm spacing, then maybe he can't build a good wheel. Period.

Nope. That ain't it.

If you deal with a man who is known to be very, very strongly opinionated, you shouldn't be surprised that he has his own idea of how best to do something.

[Rowan]

I went half way around the world for an arranged visit (and I emphasise it was arranged before I travelled across North America) to spend some hard-earned with the character. He refused to come out of the house to solve a technical question. His wife, Linda, IS the business there, and without her, I think it would just curl up and disappear.

The OP's observations about his customer service aren't the first and won't be the last.

[HillRider]

This thread is a good example of the business adage that says; "If a customer is happy, they'll tell three friends. If they're unhappy they will tell ten."

Peter White has a reputation for being both opinionated and having poor interpersonal skills. Apparently he is so good at what he does that customers will overlook that side of the experience.

BTW, the OP wasn't insisting on 126 mm hubs and was quite willing to use 130's. I agree with him that cold-setting a frame from 126 to 135 mm is more than I'd want to do. Lots of touring bikes use 130 mm hubs and if built with solid rims, good spokes and properly tensioned, give excellent service so there is no reason it can't be done.

[CHenry]

This is a post about a wheelbuilder not wanting to build a wheel with a hub size he didn't like. It is his business, not the OPs. Peter White evidently didn't want the job and said so, and I can't think why he owes anyone a detailed explanation. Maybe it was too much work for the money, maybe it was a product he did not feel comfortable warranting, maybe he didn't have the necessary components, maybe he was already too busy with other work. In the end, it doesn't matter. He has a perfectly reasonable right to decline a job if he wants to.

Do you think that things are any different for him than for anyone else who takes jobs by appointment? Sometimes it just isn't possible to take on additional work and meet your own standards of delivery and quality. In those cases, the better thing to do is simply decline new jobs that are marginal or that have an unacceptable risk of becoming complicated, like perhaps building a wheel (his are very nice, but not cheap) that was on a hub larger than the bicycle dropout width on the assumption that the frame could be successfully cold set to take a larger hub and still remain true.

Some jobs are just not worth the trouble. It isn't as if the work was promised, deposit paid and then cancelled.

To the OP: the fact that you even posted this unfair complaint--really a smear--makes me think you are on the far end of the bell curve in customer reasonableness. Maybe he saw you coming.

[barba]

He didn't want to build you some wheels. I would just move on. It is spring and most shops have more work than they could want at the moment, so a long phone conversation that doesn't necessarily lead to a sale probably isn't of much interest.

[Peter Jon White]

I don't recall your exact words, but I understood that you wanted a heavy duty 27" wheel for touring. If that's not what you wanted, well, my fault.

For loaded touring on a rim that size, you either need an extremely stiff rim with 36 spokes, or with a normal touring rim, 48 spokes. As the rim gets stiffer, you need fewer spokes to build a strong and durable wheel. Since you're using 27" wheels, you have only a few rims to choose from, and most of them are not suitable for loaded touring. There really is only one that is suitable, the Velocity Dyad, which is available in 27" with 48 holes. The best available 36 hole rim for 27" is the Sun CR-18, and with 36 spokes, it's simply not suitable for heavy touring. The rim is too flexible. In 700c the CR-18 is available with 48 spokes, and is suitable for loaded touring.

Now, I could build the 27" Dyad rim on a 48 spoke Phil Wood hub with 130mm axle spacing. But then you'd have a wheel with higher dish than would be optimal for loaded touring. That's why the frame needs to be 135mm, or at least wide enough to allow you to easily spring the stays apart to mount the wheel. The 135mm hub has the extra 5mm on the left side of the axle, moving the flanges to the right, and reducing the dish.

Cold setting a steel frame to 135mm takes all of ten minutes if the frame is stripped of the components. If someone isn't willing to consider doing that in order to have a suitable wheel for touring, well, what can I say?

[Peter Jon White]

I have spent a fair amount of my hard-earned money with Peter, on at least two wheelsets and a bunch of lighting gear. Peter is very good at supplying tourer and randonneur bicyclists' needs (and tandems, too), but I don't think he has the same interest or experience with bikes or riders outside those very specific areas. I am sure he has built a race wheel or two, but that just doesn't seem to be his main business.

It may look that way on my website. Many people are fixated on grams, and there are quite a few mass produced wheels available to bike shops for racing bikes, most of which are marketed on the basis of their weight. With all the advertising the big companies do, it's hard for bike shops to keep a good wheel builder employed, and easier to just sell the mass produced wheels advertised in the magazines. So it occurred to me many years ago that trying to compete in the racing wheel market was a waste of time. Why not promote to the touring and tandem market, since Campy and Shimano don't pay any attention to it, and fewer and fewer bike shops have a wheel builder? So that's what I promote, but it's not all I do. I actually build more racing wheels than any other type. People want light wheels because it makes the bike feel faster, and more fun to ride, even if they aren't racing. That's fine. I'm the same way. In 130mm rear hubs, I keep 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace (9 and 10 speed), White Industries, Centaur, Chorus, Record, Velocity and Phil Wood on the shelves.

But I don't recommend them for loaded touring. ;-)

[HillRider]

Peter,

That reply certainly explains your thinking very well and I think we all appreciate your taking the time to detail your reasoning.

It wasn't stated by the OP that he wanted 27" wheels and that changes the situation quite a bit since, as you said, there are very few suitable 27" rims around these days.

I realize cold-setting is quick and easy but do you think respacing a frame, even a stout steel one, from 126 to 135 mm is recommended? Going from 126 to 130 is a no-brainer but all the way to 135 seems like a lot.

[Peter Jon White]

Peter,

That reply certainly explains your thinking very well and I think we all appreciate your taking the time to detail your reasoning.

It wasn't stated by the OP that he wanted 27" wheels and that changes the situation quite a bit since, as you said, there are very few suitable 27" rims around these days.

I realize cold-setting is quick and easy but do you think respacing a frame, even a stout steel one, from 126 to 135 mm is recommended? Going from 126 to 130 is a no-brainer but all the way to 135 seems like a lot.

Yes, it does seem like a lot. But I've done quite a few frames from 120mm to 135mm without ever having a problem. Even that only entails moving each dropout 7.5mm. If putting that amount of curve in the chainstays and seat stays were a problem, how is it that fork blades can go from straight to having 40mm to 55mm of offset at the dropouts? Every steel fork you see with a curve in the blades starts out with straight blades. The frame builder cold sets the blades. I've never seen a fork blade break at the curve. I use the very same Park Tool bending bar to cold set chainstays that I used to bend fork blades back when I was building frames.

There is one potential danger. If a chainstay bridge or seat stay bridge isn't properly brazed, the joint could fail while cold setting. But that could only happen if the joint were bad to begin with. If it's an old frame, the joint would have failed years before. If it's a frame that's never been ridden and you're cold setting it when one of those joints pops, it only tells you that it would have popped within a few thousand miles of riding. A properly brazed joint is extremely strong. The tubing around the joint should bend before the joint fails.

So I see no valid argument against cold setting a steel frame to accommodate changing axle standards. In theory it's no problem, and in practice it's also no problem.

[maddmaxx]

Not at all. Based on the experiences posted by others, I feel it's quite relevant. I offered it as one explanation, not THE explanation.

When making medical diagnoses of people you haven't met based on improper information that you haven't confirmed, its not an explanation, its just foolish.

[dobber]

Not at all. Based on the experiences posted by others, I feel it's quite relevant. I offered it as one explanation, not THE explanation.

Maybe he's got two heads and one doesn't know what the other is doing. Maybe he's an alien and was busy calling home. Those speculations are about as accurate as yours.

Having seen Peter's recent responses, I'd summize that he quickly and accurately diagnosed the situation, offered the available options and moved on.

Sure, he could have offered a more detailed explaination as the the who, whats and whys, but it still wouldn't have changed the options.

Since he offers a Life Time Guarantee, he's not in the position to compromise. Essentially you have two choices, his and yours.

I'm not a customer but I plan on buying a really stout set of touring wheels someday soon.

[Butterthebean]

To the OP: the fact that you even posted this unfair complaint--really a smear--makes me think you are on the far end of the bell curve in customer reasonableness. Maybe he saw you coming.

What's unfair about it? I did not like the way I was treated, and I said so. I was not trying to smear anyone. I have received excellent service from many different people and have never been afraid to say so. This was not good service. There may be many legitimate reasons why he could not build a wheel for me, but I wouldn't know what those reasons are because he didn't "have the time."

Your presumption that he somehow knew I was going to be unreasonable, and therefore snubbed me....is laughable. I sincerely hope you are not in customer service yourself.

[Barabaika]

You should make your own decisions on the components and do some research.
You could've called him and said:
Sun 27" 36h CR18 silver polished rims
14/15 double butted spokes
Shimano 105 36h hubs

or something similar.

[well biked]

So I see no valid argument against cold setting a steel frame to accommodate changing axle standards. In theory it's no problem, and in practice it's also no problem.

+1, the bike I ride the most these days I cold set from 126 to 135, no problems whatsoever. After the cold setting, the frame is probably better aligned than it was when it was new, and it allowed me to use the hubs I wanted(Shimano XT), which better suit my current use for the bike-