Gas, Gashol, Alcohol or Diesel, & Alternative Powered Bicycles

[Mabman]

High praise from a higher power, I am glad that you see it for what it is Sister Annie and I thank you. I actually have dubbed that bike the Bicycle Utility Motorassist Vehicle or Bumvee for short.

However the next versions will be more refined and to all those that think that ICE's are the devil be comforted by the fact that they will be able to mount an electric motor in its place. We are using gas currently because it is way cheaper to build our prototypes that way to refine the drivetrain.
P1010779.JPG

Our short range goal is to distill alcohol under BATF permits and raise the compression ratio as high as we can get it to take advantage of some homegrown fuel. After we refine how we are going to generate power enough to keep a battery charged/run lighting the first thing I am going to do is mount a front hub motor on mine and have a two wheel drive hybrid and that is a moment worth waiting for I think.

[Sianelle]

I'm a keen utility bicycle/tricycle user Mabman. I much prefer to be out and about on a pedal powered vehicle than a car any day of the week
Others have seen my tricycle before, but I'll show it off again anyway



I can fit various wicker carrying baskets or a highside mesh body for carrying compost, garden waste & etc onto my tricycle and it has been called on to carry some quite amazing loads at times. It's almost two years now since I built my tricycle up and it's been completely reliable.

Your alternative fuel experiments sound really interesting btw and I look forward to reading more about it.

Now I have seen some experiments with hybrid drive done somewhere before and from what I remember they were really successful........

Ah, here we are..... http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?t=7756

[Mabman]

I have always admired your bike, it is obviously a work of Annie.

I have had several front hub motored bicycles and I always considered them to be 2 wheel drive as one is able to churn the cranks to transmit power to the rear wheel(s). They work really well in snow and I know that from experience traveling frozen snowmobile and groomed XC ski trails back in 01'. I never could get enough out of an SLA system though to satisfy my needs (especially in cold weather) although I pedaled at the top of my gearing at all times I couldn't get any more than 30 miles and when you are having that much fun 30 miles (2 hours or so) is not enough. But with the gas engine charging a lighter battery like a NiMh or Li Ion and having enough storage in that battery to operate the electric alone for a decent period, say 10 miles or so and have enough for the lighting system and electric start and onboard compressor, not that much added weight. 2WD Euipped MAB's will be in the vacinity of 70 lbs. and hopefully less but losing weight via components etc. on a MAB is not as crucial as the ones I maintain for pedaling in the forest where I am solely responsible.

A decent tandem will handle two 250 lb individuals and the stronger ones weigh in at 50+ lbs so my 180 lb. loaded body on a 70 lb. bike should be able to carry an additional 300 lbs of weight before things start needing to be re-engineered?

And also I like your modular carry all system. It is what we are trying to strive for also. If you notice the large post holding the front of the rack on the raw bike in the picture that is our central mounting point but nothing more than a standard seattube that will hold a 27.2 seatpost or its equivalent. It is very solid and any manner of rack can be assembled around it and using other contact points on the frame as well. Plus we have a tandem that just happens to have a 27.2 Cane Creek short travel post in it with a Brooks Contessa brass rivet saddle and a 27.2 front saddle with a stoker grip set up on it and when I get my R/S bike going we are going to have to slap it all on there and try it out.

[Sianelle]

I'd noticed the way you'd setup that seatpost mounting and I thought it was a really clever idea. I must try to do something similar on the next utility bike/trike I build. My 'modular' basket and carrying tray setup isn't anything like so elegant. The main reason for that is because I usually need to carry something right now and things get built in a hurry.

Ta for saying nice things about my tricycle Now that it's Summer and we've got a lot of tourists and visitors in town my tricycle gets its photo taken all the time.

[Tourezrick]

I'm a keen utility bicycle/tricycle user Mabman. I much prefer to be out and about on a pedal powered vehicle than a car any day of the week
Others have seen my tricycle before, but I'll show it off again anyway



I can fit various wicker carrying baskets or a highside mesh body for carrying compost, garden waste & etc onto my tricycle and it has been called on to carry some quite amazing loads at times. It's almost two years now since I built my tricycle up and it's been completely reliable.

Your alternative fuel experiments sound really interesting btw and I look forward to reading more about it.

Now I have seen some experiments with hybrid drive done somewhere before and from what I remember they were really successful........

Ah, here we are..... http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?t=7756

I just love looking at your trike - it just seems - so right - for want of better words. I know you must enjoy riding it, maintaining it, even talking about it, the classic simplicity of the whole package is just - right! Enjoy!

I'm closely watching the development of the Staton hybrid drive. Current technology of solar panels prevents building a system that allows real time generation of sufficient current to drive a motor of significant size, and barring a breakthrough, I doubt I'll see such a thing in my lifetime. The idea of using biofuels to power a small internal combustion engine to assist pedaling, and charge batteries is brilliant. A small ICE that would run on E85 would be a real breakthrough! I figure that at least 3 hp if not more wouild be needed to assist and drive a small genset, although that power point is probably too low to start from dead stop and generate some wattage at the same time, unless driven through the bike gears or a seperate gearbox. Time will tell.

[Mabman]

The way I see it if you are running an ICE on a homegrown or reclaimed source of fuel to assist your normal pedaling then there really is no need to have an electric motor at all? But still you could generate power in to a battery for your lighting system? My goal of utilizing both is more at this time is to see how feasible/useful it can be.

Staton's system looks like a DC generator that is plumbed in to their 18.75:1 gear box which will in fact rob a substantial amoun of hp from the ICE that it is hooked to to make it efficient and I suppose that is what is holding them up because 49cc - ICE's that produce 3 or more hp stock are non existent outside of the pocket bike world as far as I know. 49cc being the legal cut off point size limit under federal/state regs with some states like OR being only 35cc.

Here is a picture of a setup similar to what Staton is up to as far as a DC generator run by an ICE. I don't think it worked well enough for the person that built it to pursue it any further than this rather crude stage. Perhaps with a larger motor he would have had more luck. Putting all this stuff on a trailer that can be easily detached has some merits however.
bikegenset.jpg
One point in his favor is I think he said he had less than $300 in the whole setup including the trailer that he got off of CL.

That is why we think that the best that can be done within the current regulatory guidelines is to capture parasitic power from a 2 hp ICE and charge a battery and then run the electric off the battery. You can still run the ICE to keep the battery charging but then why have the electric motor? That way you could motor in to town on the ICE and do your intown running around on the electric, then motor home. A voltmeter would keep track of your charge and if you are not getting enough with the ICE runtime you can do an aux charge at home or work. Having a constant power source for lighting so that you could do away with all the different small batteries would be a plus also and you could fit the ICE easily with electric start.

But is the extra fooling around and ending up with a heavier overall more expensive bicycle worth it? It is entirely possible to run small engines on alcohol and has been done in the past by David Blume with mopeds as illustrated in his book "Alcohol Can Be A Gas" which as far as I can tell is the alcohol bible. The cold starting issue can be addressed with some ether and you an recapture heat off the exhaust manifold with a shield and direct it in to the intake manifold as a vaporizer. As I said alcohol likes high compression and the small 4 stroke ICE's don't lead in that field in stock form but can be modified to get as much as possible but still only around 10:1. The aforementiond pocket bike 2 cycle engines can have as much as 14:1 and I have seen them listed with as much as 14hp.

Running alcohol/castor bean/hho generator on a 2 cycle would easily yield in the 200 mpg range. All the products would be non invasive and non polluting but the 2 stroke would still sound like a 2 stroke which are quite a bit louder overall than their 4 cycle cousins that can run on alcohol alone or even in conjunction with hho (Brown's Gas) with the power for the hho generator coming from the battery once again.

As much as I want to see electric bikes succeed every time I compare them with ICE they come up lacking. However a hybridization of the two is worth looking in to and we will be doing so by next spring at the latest.

[buzzman]

I was an opponent to the gas powered sub-section in BF in the "poll thread"- not out of an ignorance of gas powered bikes but from some familiarity.

I just thought I'd revisit after having had a bit of time away from the original discussion and to share a slightly modified perspective on the gas powered engine bikes being discussed.

I still have major concerns regarding these bikes, particularly the 2 stroke gas engines:

1) Noise level.

2) Pollutants.

3) Where the bikes are ridden- MUP's, trails, bike lanes?

4) Safety

5) Mechanical reliability and integrity.

However, a nephew of mine who is an excellent bicyclist and professional frame builder has been tinkering about in this arena and has me reconsidering how these bikes can have a place in that interesting territory of assisted bicycles and provide a fun alternative to either an automobile or a pedal only bicycle.

The discussions I see starting to evolve on alternative fuel sources are a step in a direction that makes me less apprehensive about these bikes gaining popularity.

I'm now thinking that by including this sub-section within bike forums a healthy perspective might be gained by those of us voicing some skepticism and challenging those who wish to build, use or design these bikes to take factors like noise and environmental concerns into consideration.

Do most of you who use these bikes share these concerns or are they something that just don't come into the picture?

[tpreitzel]

buzzman -

Are you sure you want replies?

Personally, I think far too many people have their noses where they don't belong, i.e. in other people's business. Sure, the actions of others affect everyone else as freedom demands nothing less. As long as no direct, immediate threat to life results from one's actions, live and let live. Freedom means the willingness to accept risk. Rather than state coercion or force, education is the best tool for changing perspectives and actions. It's encouraging to see your changing perspective. True, ICE's are relatively noisy, etc. Let innovation in technology and the market drive the changes. Lastly, let's encourage personal responsibility without using the force of the state. IMO, there should be a sub-section on assisted bicycles which are non-electric.

[Mabman]

I have been tracking the fossil fuel forums and have a few conclusions.

A: The prevalent ICE engine being used is the very engine that China banned and replaced with electric. They didn't ban their manufacture and sales to other countries however. These motors are 2 cycle and are 48cc and 66cc generally. With most opting for the larger motor, although it violates the federal size regulation of 49cc. There are manufacturers that state that their motors are EPA but the certification is listed as non-road.
EPA.jpg

And the quality of the motors is evident here:
照片 025.jpg
照片 022.jpg

The selling factor and the following these engines has is due to the fact that they are the cheapest motor available outside of stripping ones off chainsaws, leafblowers, weedwhackers etc. and believe me there is plenty of that going on in the garages of America also. Readily available on eBay as a kit and can be had for $129 shipped to your door. Probably won't get that sticker with one though cause it cost more for that.

B: The small 4 cycle engines that have been developed the last 10 years to qualify for CARB requirements have meant leaps and bounds of technology compared to the old B & S engines on that toro mower you used to push around the yard, or had on your mini bike. The cream of the tech crop though is the oil system actually. 4 cycle engines typically can't run upside down because oil from the sump will get in to the head and stop combustion. Ryobi was the first to make a vented oil system so that they could run their motor as you would be able to a 2 stroke, but this feature really only pertains to the aforementioned chainsaws etc.. Ryobi never did much with their motor but put it on cheap weedwhackers but Honda and Subaru/Robin both make excellent small engines in 25cc, 35cc and 49cc models. There is even a chinese knock off of the Honda motor. As far as noise pollution goes the 4 cycle engines can be muffled down to a very low tone. The 2 strokes are louder but can also be muffled well enough and will be when we get them on alcohol. Gear boxes can be noisy if straight cut gears are used, but more efficient drivetrains are being developed.

The price for these motors in kit form are typically 2 to 3 times the investment of their 2 stroke cousins, but offer better mileage and are cleaner burning on regular fuel that doesn't have to be mixed with oil. They are also bulkier and when mounted in the front triangle they are wider and require a much wider bb spindle or some form or bent outward cranks. This makes it awkward for actual pedaling but more on that in a minute.

C: As Buzzman said, some folks that have been around bicycles for a long time and are involved in the industry are starting to pay attention to this concept, more so than electric I am afraid. We are cyclists first and foremost whereas the motorized bike crowd tends to want to just get a motor going and stop in the middle of the hill for a smoke and aren't that interested in pedaling. But as a motor assist bicycle if you maintain the gearing to be able to keep resistance to the pedals at full range of the motor via gearing you not only get a nice workout, you get better mileage because you are staying on step with the motor more. It is a phenomenon that you have to experience. But I can guarantee that it is the one that will make converts out of the most holy in the end.

D: Research and Development is ongoing. Most of the people that are involved with this are willing to share information freely because they see it as something good and the more people that are involved and the sooner this type of technology is embraced the better. This is an interesting link that shows that perhaps the future of our planet is in good hands? http://anuj.ch.googlepages.com/ucb_smv_efi Of course there is the CPSC, the EPA and DOT to deal with and that will ultimately be the sludge that slows this down if allowed to.

[buzzman]

buzzman -

Are you sure you want replies?

you bet I do!

I'm curious. I worked around these things back in the 70's and as far as I can see there aren't many improvements in the 2-stroke engines and am not that familiar with the 4 stroke improvements. As far as I can see is there haven't been that many "improvements" in the 2-stroke other than that cheap versions are being imported from China. Nor do I feel there is that much more improvement possible in the basic design since the engine is just that, basic. But if it ran on an alternative fuel, like alcohol and had a better muffler...

but the 4 stokes intrigue me.

As a mechanic I found them a fun bike to work on and kind of fun to ride. As a cyclist I'd be hard pressed to give up pedaling in favor of an assisted bike but see how they could be attractive to some riders. As a person interested in alternative and more ecological transportation modes I think they offer some real potential and some drawbacks.

I have extremely limited experience with electric assist bikes as a comparison.

[tpreitzel]

Basically, the newer 2 stroke * diesel engines are much improved, but there's a huge number of older 2 stroke gasoline engines which can even be significantly improved with a slight redesign. Some kids from Denmark were in the news recently about the latter. Although the noise of 2 stroke engines can be much reduced with adequate mufflers, one local chap has a retrofitted bicycle with a gasoline 2 stroke engine which he rides around town, but it's a cheap DIY retrofit lacking in some necessary details. The noise is so loud one can hear the echoes of him passing a mile away. A group of those bikes would awaken the dead.

* http://www.pivotalengine.com - A 2 stroke REDESIGN for scooters, motorcycles, or cars, but possibly could be adapted to smaller frames like bicycles.

[buzzman]

Basically, the newer 2 stroke * diesel engines are much improved, but there's a huge number of older 2 stroke gasoline engines which can even be significantly improved with a slight redesign. Some kids from Denmark were in the news recently about the latter. Although the noise of 2 stroke engines can be much reduced with adequate mufflers, one local chap has a retrofitted bicycle with a gasoline 2 stroke engine which he rides around town, but it's a cheap DIY retrofit lacking in some necessary details. The noise is so loud one can hear the echoes of him passing a mile away. A group of those bikes would awaken the dead.

* http://www.pivotalengine.com - A 2 stroke REDESIGN for scooters, motorcycles, or cars, but possibly could be adapted to smaller frames like bicycles.

The link you provided is the only example of an improved 2 stroke engine even by their own admission. It's cost and the applications it is designed for make it an unlikely choice for use as assisted power on a bicycle. Do you have a link to a diesel 2 stroke that would fit on a bicycle frame and is cost effective for such use? A diesel would at least have the potential for a bio-fuel conversion. Or do you have more info on what the Danish kids were doing? And what significant improvements are you talking about and through what "slight redesign"?

[Mabman]

Why does the engine even have to be re-invented? There are plenty, in fact all ICE's, that will run on alcohol with some modifications and duel fuel vehicles on the market today that need nothing other than a reliable source of supply. And the necessary biomass can be grown on untillable land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel You will be waiting a long time for a diesel engine small enough for motor assist, if ever, and diesel bio fuel biomass is more apt to take up valuable tillable land, or in the case of palm oil the cutting of forests.

[tpreitzel]

The link you provided is the only example of an improved 2 stroke engine even by their own admission. It's cost and the applications it is designed for make it an unlikely choice for use as assisted power on a bicycle.

Personally, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility. The current form factor even with a single cylinder is a bit large, but that problem shouldn't be too much of an obstacle. Production costs for a limited market would be a bigger problem...The pivotal engine is a good example of the innovation possible with the ICE with current applications including scooters and motorcycles.

Do you have a link to a diesel 2 stroke that would fit on a bicycle frame and is cost effective for such use? A diesel would at least have the potential for a bio-fuel conversion. Or do you have more info on what the Danish kids were doing? And what significant improvements are you talking about and through what "slight redesign"?

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1641/71/

Sure, just search for Lohmann engine developed back in 1950s or so. PRACTICA is developing a newer 18cc engine that can be adapted to a bike. No, you won't find pre-built diesel KITS yet, but the market will respond to demand in time. http://www.practicafoundation.nl/pro...diesel-engine/

With a conventional 2 stroke diesel, you're looking at engines from 20cc - 50 cc for possible adaptation to a bicycle.

[Mabman]

This is the motor that will rule the motor assist market about the time that micro diesels do. http://www.weberprecision.com/

Enjoy your fantasy boys. Market demands for diesel for this type of application are a fraction of fraction of a percentage and looking to stay that way, mainly because it is easier to get people to just go the path of least resistance. And at this time the cheap chinese 2 strokes rule that roost. In the meantime there are plenty that are not just talking about viable motor assist, they are doing it with products that are available today in the real world with impressive results of range and fuel economy. Last years Shell Eco-Challenge was won with an ICE that got 2800mpg.

Carry on.

[Chiricocycle]

On the way to mach 9,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9V6VpoED4A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5bPu58fSc0

(I'm wondering what happens when you hit something at 6,453 mph. Watching it happen certainly gives a sense of speed....)

[jerryt]

Sianelle, Don't miss these
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...hp?f=12&t=8099

[drewsoccer2]

gee heres a great idea instead of electricity and gas and everything tray using your fat but to power the bike... amazing oh heres a tip: dont loose the bike betwene your massive cheeks

[raypsi]

. Last years Shell Eco-Challenge was won with an ICE that got 2800mpg.

Carry on.

Just to set the record straight it's this:

Mater Dei's 2,843.4 mpg achievement stretches boundaries of fuel efficiency at the 2008 Shell Eco-marathon Americas.

anon
ray

[Boredomfiend]

Can you attatch one of these onto your mountain bike and still be able to ride on singletrack? When you do add this engine to your bike, does it lose its status as an unpowered vehicle?

You need to check the legal restrictions for you state. It varies. For instance, I'm in California and mine can follow regular bike limitations as long as the motor is at or under 2hp and has a top speed under 30mph.
I can even ride it on bike trails, as long as I just peddle it without the motor running.

TheDave

[lawrencehare]

I thought I'd post this article here as it is an effective means of power-assist and uses plain old diesel fuel. I have recently discovered two implementations of this technique and I offer them up for consideration here.

http://www.moulton-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=247
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33566986@N03/

The first two pictures of the flickr site show the second implementation I mentioned, along with the intrepid and fearless pilot. This version uses a combination of a model jet and a turbo-charger, but I cannot imagine how they are connected or why. I would have thought the jet was enough.

I understand that the base price for these engines runs around $2K. The article from the moulton-forum explains more. One issue may be the noise, these little engines create the most staggering racket imaginable. But in the interests of technology - these are but small matters.

Lawrence

[DwayneS]

How about propane power? It is very clean and moderately quiet and methane or hydrogen is also a more eco friendly alternative.

Extremly small and light engines made for ultra-light aircraft should be extremly well suited for something like a recumbent trike as well. If you had the skill you could rig up a chain or even belt drive to the front wheel and keep pedal power as well. It would be a challenge, but certainly possible and it would be able to deliver some extreme fuel-mileage and power/speed.

[karma]

propane works but over time warps the valves. most of my projects are mostly electric but have changed to working on alternative fuels. also been looking at picking up the Honda gx25 to see what other fuels i can get it to work with


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDPV...eature=related

[Mabman]

The Subaru Robin engines are generally considered to be a better product than the Honda's. Made in Japan as opposed to Thailand and a steel cylinder sleeve instead of aluminum.

http://www.robinamerica.com/series.aspx?sid=21

There is a company developing a very slick use for this engine adaptable to any 2 or three wheeled bike that should be available in the near future.

Alcohol is a good fuel for that 2 stroke. There is a good chapter on that in David Blumes book. But those Chinese 2 stroke kits are sketchy at best. There is a Russian version of it also but hard to find and harder to find parts for. Tanaka makes a really nice 2 stroke and so does Mitsubishi but are generally used for rear mount application via chain, belt or friction.

[karma]

The Subaru Robin engines are generally considered to be a better product than the Honda's. Made in Japan as opposed to Thailand and a steel cylinder sleeve instead of aluminum.

http://www.robinamerica.com/series.aspx?sid=21

There is a company developing a very slick use for this engine adaptable to any 2 or three wheeled bike that should be available in the near future.

Alcohol is a good fuel for that 2 stroke. There is a good chapter on that in David Blumes book. But those Chinese 2 stroke kits are sketchy at best. There is a Russian version of it also but hard to find and harder to find parts for. Tanaka makes a really nice 2 stroke and so does Mitsubishi but are generally used for rear mount application via chain, belt or friction.

i picked up the honda gx50 4 stroke i love it. i found the 2 stroke to be a very dirty motor
good if you have a garage but if your living in a apartment you need to put a bag over the pipe if you have carpet. drips black oil everywhere. well that and the oil gets all over the rear of the bike and on your shoes when running.

the gx50 has a cast iron sleeve.

http://www.youtube.com/user/karmabik.../3/X5bpGnzpZEA