I've also had a ALL IS FINE 11 self destruct and went back to the eight speed till they get it fixed.
I've also had a ALL IS FINE 11 self destruct and went back to the eight speed till they get it fixed.
Last edited by unterhausen; 05-22-12 at 08:16 AM. Reason: edited for civility
Wars started and ended.
Maidens rescued and ravaged.
You know SSDD. P.S. We also walk dogs.
My LBS has had to warranty Alfine 11 hubs besides mine, and I doubt that there a half dozen of them in all of Austin.
There is ABSOLUTELY no question that Shimano has a problem here.
Don in Austin
Last edited by unterhausen; 05-22-12 at 08:22 AM. Reason: removed OT
Don in Austin, what else has Shimano said to you? I have yet to get to speak to them myself, only going through my bike shop. I was always told that I shouldn't shift the 11 under power. But I don't. So even if that is what's killing your hubs, it's definitely not what's killing mine. Also for anyone in this thread that does have an Alfine 11, what gear ratios are you using?
It's been exactly one year and hub #5 is on the way. What are the possible outcomes here? Will shimano just keep shipping me hubs. And when the warranty expires, I'm stuck with hub #10?
Will they recall them all? But if they do that, how will users be compensated?
I suspect that the 11 is going away and never coming back. I'd love it if there was one tiny glitch they could fix. But I suspect its a fundamental flaw. Rholoff's last forever because you feed them high speed, low torque pedal power, and they gear down that power so that in the end, the wheel rotates slower and with torque. But there is much less torque passing through the internal gears of the hub. The ideal gears for a rholoff are something like 40/17. The Alfine on the other hand, doesn't do much reduction. So you have to feed it a lot more torque from your pedals to get a reasonable output range from it. The ideal gears on an Alfine are 32/20, or mathematically, a 27.2/17 ratio. I think Alfine 11's are tearing themselves apart BY DESIGN. Also note that when I say "ideal gear", I mean the chainring/cog combo that is going to give you the best, closest match to the gear range on a typical 3x9 derailer based drive train.
It almost seems like these Alfine are best suited for road bikes. The one biking genre that wants nothing to do with internal hubs.
If shimano was willing to give me a full msrp cash refund for my hub and shifter right now (which I know will likely never happen), I'd probably pick up a rholoff. It's really a shame Rholoff doesn't make a 36h version (it would be so insignificant for them to re-space and drill a few more holes) and it's even more of a shame that they are still glued to a gripshift. In the MTB world, people like Alfine/XT style trigger shifters. We like to shift and brake at the same time.
Don in Austin, please tell us as much specific detail as you can about all Alfine-11 related conversations you've had with shimano.
please don't post any more about Mr. IGH in this thread. Mr. IGH, please don't post any more comments in this thread. Thanks.
In general, if a post is about another BF member, it's not a good idea to hit the "post quick reply" button
I have a few questions for the OP:
It seems that you're having a terrible time with this hub. I read that this is being used on a Redline cross bike; is it the disc or the rim brake model? In either case, have you yet considered moving to a different rear hub? There are several proven IGHs on the market that are sure to fit your application. (I'd stay away from the SA 8speed model, though, due to the gearing challenges you'll face with the 700c wheels.)
It doesn't surprise me that the new Shimano 11speed IGH is prone to some problems. This is often the case with a new design, and IGHs seem more prone to issues, due to the need for seals and the less accessible/visible shifting mechanisms. I remember that early 8speed SAs were prone to a lot of problems; even early rohloffs had issues with seals. So, it doesn't really surprise me that the new Shimano has some teething problems, but that should be THEIR problem, not yours.
To be fair, even tried-n-true designs can be duds at times. The SA XRD-3 on my wife's bike works like a dream, but the guts were taken from an entirely new hub. I was NEVER able to get the original guts to shift into all 3gears. It was the first IGH I'd ever set-up, so I assumed it was my error, and took it to a bike shop known for their experience with SA hubs. None of their mechanics could get it to work, but they swore up and down that I had in no way damaged the hub; they seemed pretty sure that it was defective. (I still suspect I might have damaged it thru misadjustment, but...)
Bottom line is, some ppl had reported that earlier nexus 7- and 8-speeds were problematic, but many ppl run later-model Nexus and Alfine 8s with no problems...even off-road and with ridiculously low direct gear ratios. I had trouble with the initial SA 3speed, but I cannot bring myself to malign the various descendents of the Sturmey-Archer AW hubs, b/c generally speaking, they are reliable and durable hubs. Similarly, even if Shimano drops the ball sometimes with insufficient R&D (and maddening departures from their tradition of retro-compatible derailers), they are still known as a manufacturer of quality cycling components.
I've worked as a barista at a local coffee shop for a verrrrrrrrrry long time now, since undergrad, and I still work there on Sundays. I have a good reputation for the delicious drinks I make there. Still, I'm pretty sure that I occasionally make someone a ****tY latte. Nobody's perfect, which is how/why I can forgive SA or Shimano if they make a lousy hub from time to time.
Just sayin'
-rob
Last edited by unterhausen; 05-22-12 at 08:23 AM. Reason: I asked for people not to post about that, and censor
That bike has just been sitting. It is a Redline Cross with rim brakes. There are many other reliable drivetrains I could put in it. I am just bummed out that I spend considerable $$$ on
1 -- The 11 speed hub,
2 -- Wheel build
3 -- The crankset with 32 tooth gear
I am planning to wait until almost the end of the warranty period and see if they have fixed the problems with the hub.
Don in Austin
They tried to deny there is a widespread problem. They were willing to warranty the hubs both times and said they will warranty the hub again. They said the hub "is designed to be shifted under any circumstance." That's about it. I haven't talked to them for a few months.Originally Posted by fellsbiker
Don in Austin
But they do.
There are actually quite a number of available shifters for the Rohloff....it's even more of a shame that they are still glued to a gripshift.
"When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.
"Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008
Phil Wood company makes alternate hub shells for Rohloff's internals .
I've seen 16 more holes drilled in the original shell, by Aaron's bike in Seattle .
I think they had Big Dummy cargo Builds in Mind..
the extra spokes , radial, over the original 2 cross pattern.
Alternate shifters for Rohloff are made by 3rd parties...
I got a Mittlemeyer one that goes on drop bars, I'm not going to use, will resell .
for a C-note.
one Australian company made an electronic one. I suppose up/down buttons
Last edited by fietsbob; 05-22-12 at 10:53 AM.
I have my 5th Alfine 11 and so far so good. Shimano specifically said to my shop that there are in input limits, meaning you can use any gear ratio you want. I already read in the tech docs that you CANNNNN shift while pedaling. Even though the hub screams no when you do, the docs say you can. I'm still going to opt for NOT shifting under power. I've been kind of avoiding 2nd gear because I feel like I'm just going to destroy it again (all 160 pounds of me). But once my season really kicks into gear, avoiding 2nd gear won't be an option. I guess I'll just hope for the best. And keep getting it warrantied.
I think my 5th hub might be on it's way out. I've been avoiding 2nd gear all together. But today I had to climb a steep rock and that rock called for 2nd gear. There was no shifting involved at all, I started in 2nd gear and muscled up the hill. Near the top, it skipped. And from that point on, it was doing a little grinding, a little ghost shifting. All of the usual stuff these hubs do when they are failing. I'm going to go on another more mellow ride thursday night and see how it reacts. But my gut says 2nd gear is done. I've been joking that I'll keep getting new hubs from shimano for ever if they want to keep sending them to me. But I'm changing my mind about that now. I'm about ready to throw in the towel.
My bike shop heard from shimano today. Instead of the "there are no gear input ratio limits" that they were previously told from shimano, and many other people on the internet were also told from shimano... my shop was told that my gear ratio of 1.6 is "way too low" for the 11 to handle, and that every 11 speed hub they send me will have this same problem.
Now the thing is, 1.6 isn't very far from 1.9, which is the "recommended" ratio. So if you destroy 2nd gear in 10 miles with 1.6, I can't imagine it's going to last very long even if you use 1.9. That said, 1.9 puts your output ratios way too high for mountain biking. The top end is nice but with no low end, there will be no more technical climbing period.
Apparently the Alfine 11 is only suitable for road bikes.
I'm thinking about what my options are but i'm not thrilled about any of them.
I'm wondering if maybe an Alfine 8 with a derailer up front. So I could shift into "high" and do urban rides, and shift into low for technical mountain rides. I'll have to do all the math on that some day and see how it work out.
But as far as I'm concerned, Shimano has said today, that the Alfine 11 is not for MTB use.
Rohloff sets up a booth at many European MTB races..
they Are made as a MTB substitute drive train.
32 hole 2 cross is the proper build.. with 26" and 29er rims.
As I posted previously all the internal gear hubs have limits on how low the gear ration can be. You will have the same problem with the other Shimano hubs. This is printed in the Shimano sales and support manual. If your shop does not have them they can just ask. I have some for different years. The most recent one I have is 2011. They list the minimum size chain rings, because of torque problems. This is very old news. Don't use any of them for a mtb. Period.
Your assumption about 1.6 not being too far from 1.9 and 1.9 not working is wrong. All this stuff is documented, and available.
I'm amazed your shop did not know this !! This stuff is decades old. Same for Sturmey Archer hubs. Plenty of people have used low gear ratios on IGH and ruined them.
Sheldon Brown writes about this too. It's easy to find on line.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I can't speak for any of the other hubs, but for the Shimano 11 speed, I've only seen one document that mentioned 1.9, and all it said was "recommended" ratio. It didn't say anything about "limit". Shimano also told my bike shop on more than one occasion, that you can use any input gear ratio you want. I'm not going to blame my bike shop and shimano's barely saying a word about things.
And another thing. Part of the whole buzz about the 11 speed hub was that it was supposed to specifically be stronger than the 8 speed, and strong enough for mountain biking. Neither of which turned out to be true, but Shimano could have been clear about this from the beginning, instead of being quiet about it, and letting early adopters figure it out for them.
I would not blame your bike shop either.
My ratio is 1.7777777, 32 front, 18 rear. I do not get out of the saddle as a general practice and I would NEVER do so pedaling an Alfine 11 for safety reasons. I weight 170 lbs. Somebody who weighed 225 lbs and rose out of the saddle to climb a hill would easily apply far more torque to the hub than I do even they had a ratio of 2.0 or greater. The incline of a steep hill with the hub all the way down in 1 is going to require a given torque applied to the hub regardless of whether it comes from the rider or the ratio. Clearly, the hub is not up to steep hills. I did not put the hub in a MTB, but in a street bike used in a city with hills. I have yet to see anything from Shimano forbidding ratios beyond a certain limit. Perhaps those that make that claim can provide links?
Don in Austin
Can you please provide links to Shimano docs where these limits are stated?
Don in Austin
That's a very, very bad assumption on your part.....alignment of the dots doesnt mean your cabling is correct and correctly set. It may be correct for 6th gear but it could change as you go through the gears in either direction.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying there isnt an issue with the hub.
WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma Campy Record; 1997 Litespeed Catalyst Dura Ace; 1990 Miyata TripleCross; 1992 Bianchi Avenue; 1986 Schwinn Circuit Dura Ace; 1986 Dave Moulton Fuso Dura Ace 25th; 1986 Basso Campy Super Record, 1985 Vitus 997 Campy Super record; 1980 Colnago Mexico Campy Super Record; 1973 Raleigh RRA; 1973 Schwinn Paramount P65
I agree, but there's not really any other better options in the world of internal geared hubs.
Livestrong. The personal fundmaker of Lance Armstrong. The company who are in business to not donate to cancer research, but only to inform people that cancer is bad.
Armstrong. The man without integrity, no care for the sport, and no problem with testing positive for EPO and making donations to cover it up.
01101010101010001010
I think thats an 18% difference which is huge....
WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma Campy Record; 1997 Litespeed Catalyst Dura Ace; 1990 Miyata TripleCross; 1992 Bianchi Avenue; 1986 Schwinn Circuit Dura Ace; 1986 Dave Moulton Fuso Dura Ace 25th; 1986 Basso Campy Super Record, 1985 Vitus 997 Campy Super record; 1980 Colnago Mexico Campy Super Record; 1973 Raleigh RRA; 1973 Schwinn Paramount P65
Please provide the link to Shimano Docs where this is stated.
ZOr a scan of the page in question if it is not found online.
THe Shimano tech docs on their website do not list a minimum chainring size - just suggest that a ratio of 1.9 be used and gives examples of gear combinations that will accomplish this using 34, 39, and 45 tooth chainrings.
I am not suggesting that using low ratios is good or will not kill the hubs, just that I have never seen Shimano admit this in writing.
BTW, I weigh 260 lbs and have a ratio of 2.0:1 on a Alfine 8 and never had a single problem. THe torque I put into the hub when standing on the pedals would be similar to a person 130 lbs using a 1:1 ratio or a 195 lb person using a 1.5:1 ratio.
Bad assumptions. What if the 130 pounder has more hp than you?
WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma Campy Record; 1997 Litespeed Catalyst Dura Ace; 1990 Miyata TripleCross; 1992 Bianchi Avenue; 1986 Schwinn Circuit Dura Ace; 1986 Dave Moulton Fuso Dura Ace 25th; 1986 Basso Campy Super Record, 1985 Vitus 997 Campy Super record; 1980 Colnago Mexico Campy Super Record; 1973 Raleigh RRA; 1973 Schwinn Paramount P65
The only way it could change would be excessive friction, something binds, something flexes, something wrong with shifters. There are no limit adjustments on this setup. I don't think any of these were the case. And it SLIPPED IN 6TH WITH 6TH GEAR DOTS ALIGNED. Indeed, there is something wrong with the hub, and its not the only one by a long shot.
Don in Austin
I siad the same torque when standing on the pedals. Torque and power are independent of each-other - I could be weak as a kitten and 600 lbs and standing on the pedals I still have (600 lbs x (17.5/30.5) ft) = 344 ft-lbs of torque.
Power is the ability to generate force and movement over a period of time. Torque does not require any movement.
Most weak 600 lb people can't stand up to pedal for long (generate power)... it might only take two or three XXXtreme-torque pedal strokes to rip the guts out of a lot of bike components, though.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
