madhouse

What do ya mean! I was thinking of getting one for when I commute past the Turkey barns!

Seriously, I don't know how those turkeys survive in there... It is hard to catch your breath if the wind is in the wrong direction!

John C. Ratliff

I am getting a bit more sensitive to the respiratory hazards of cycling. Today, on my commute to work, I have one section of road that is fairly busy right after my bike path. I was about no get onto it, when a dump truck came by. I waited to enter the highway, and then noticed the plumb of diesel exhaust he had streamed along my route on the road, just as I was climbing a hill. Through heavy breaths, I cursed a bit that the dump truck had decided to come by just before I climbed that hill. Tomorrow, I will probably wear the respirator again.

John

andygates

I;ve said it before and I'll say it again: you're better off spending the money on joining your local clean air campaign.

AndrewP

John Ratcliff - how would an electrostatic filter do for removing diesel particulates. An elecrostatic generator could be made with a leather ring attached to the spokes. This should give less resistance to breathing.

John C. Ratliff

Andrew,

Unfortunately, the concept of on electrostatic filter on the spokes would not do well unless your nose was within about an inch of the wheel, and the wind was blowing through the wheel. Even then, it probably would miss a huge amount of particles in the air. Where I work, we have clean room environments, and teach employees about how many particles are allowed in those rooms. We have Class 10, Class 100, Class 1000 and Class 10,000 clean rooms. This means that 10, 100, 1000 and 10,000 particles are allowed in those areas, respectively, per cubic foot of air. These are particles over 0.5 microns in diameter. So guess what is in "normal" outside air? Approximately 50,000 particles per cubic foot of air. Now, add pollution from a diesel engine, and the number becomes truely huge.

John

AndrewP

I was thinking of an face mask with wire grids connected to electrostatic generator on the wheel. How effective would this be for removing particulates, which are the most harmful part of diesel exhaust. I have seen electro static filters in household systems for people with pollen/dust allergies - these worked well.

jnbacon

OK, I have this image of someone wearing a bug zapper around their face, sparks flying and that great ZAP!

John C. Ratliff

Andrew,

The short answer is that I simply do not know about this concept. I understand that electrostatic filters work under some circumstances, but I am a bit suspicious unless there is a lot of cleaning to do. I have some in my home, and I see nothing on them (but they are behind some of the regular filters, and so may not be seeing much). I tried a Google quiry, but my first one got something like 87,000 "hits." So in short, this question is out of my area of expertise.

John

nklatt

Due to the current air quality in the Twin Cities here I'm resurrecting a not-long-dead thread.


Re-reading this reminds me of something from my aquarium-keeping days. I had a nasty bout with suspended algae and what finally got rid of it was something that made the algae stick together so that it became large enough to be taken out by the filter. Seems like there could be some lung maintenance product that does the same thing with small particulates in the lungs - react with them in some way so they become large enough to be trapped in the mucous and removed by the cilia. Is there such a thing?

Nathan

John C. Ratliff

Nathan,

Well, in order to do something like that, you would have to place something almost as small into the lungs of a living person. The problem is not the chemistry of trapping the particles--that could be easily accomplished. The problem is doing so while doing no further harm to a person. This is a BIG problem, and actually it would be unethical to even test it. So no, it does not exist is most likely will not exist. To put it another way, when you worked on your aquarium, you probably took the fish out for a time. Otherwise, the fish could have been in jeopardy.

Given that, our best protection is an engineering control--get badly tuned diesels off the road. But this won't happen either because of economics. We could try to put some sort of filter on the engine, but again that has economic costs and efficiency costs which probably make it prohibitive.

Here are the possible controls:

--One engineering control is already there--use side streets and bike paths that are away from diesel engines.

--An administrative control of keeping distance and limiting time of exposure is also very practical. We can ride when the traffic is light. We can stay away from heavy traffic.

--Or, we can use what in the safety profession is known as PPE (personal protective equipment); in this case, a respirator as we discussed above.

I hope this helps.

John

Inoplanetyanin

I commute 20 miles a day in Los Angeles area. The air here is pretty horrible.

What mostly bothers me is DUST! It rains very rarely here and dust accumulates on all surfaces. There are also these nasty dust blowers that like to blow on the curb right where I bike.

Anyway, today I tried to use this exact type of respirator and unfortunately several problems got revealed:

- the warm air that comes out of it from the top, foggs the sunglasses. :d (it was early in the morning, so I will see if it happens during the day, but it was a big inconvenience that forced me to take the glasses off);

- it DOES restrict breathing. When going fast or uphill, breathing deep through the mouth, I felt restriction.

- it feels bad! This mask is not going to stay fresh or dry for long! Sweat and moist make it pretty nasty to wear! You also smell it all the time since it covers the nose.

So, unfortunately this mask is not a real solution to pollution problem while commuting. At least for me.

https://www.goldenspirit.com/Labyrint...dustpatrol.jpg

https://www.safmed.com/store/product58.html

dalmore

From my experience with woodworking, I need a mask with a ventilation valve to avoid problems with restictive breathing at any heightened level of activity. Should solve the problems you encountered with catching your breath and with the hot air fogging your glasses.

https://www.ontimesupplies.com/N100_P...m_MMM8233.html

I would expect it does help with dust provided it fits.

95RPM

John, can you point us to the 'N-100 HEPA filter' that you use? Thanks.

New

Hi i bought a RESPRO Mask and on the Website the techno mask says conforms to EU standard then when i got the mask it doesn't say that.

And the most worrying thing is, is that it says the mask is just to stop nuisence odours. There's no evidence that it protects from any pollution or chemicals.

Should i take it back

John C. Ratliff

Yes, try at least. That is deceptive. Get a mask that has a NIOSH TC number (Technical Certification). If you want to remove particles, get a half-face mask with a HEPA filter. If you want more out of the air, get a combination with a HEPA filter stacked on an Organic Vapors filter. For more, see below.

John

John C. Ratliff

One of you PMed me about this, and so I'll write here my response to him:

There are a couple of things you need to understand. These ultrafine particles that come out of a diesel engine won't be completely filtered by any mask. HEPA filters are pretty good for any particle over a micron in diameter. But when you get to particles under half a micron, it is difficult to filter them out. Diesel exhaust has a lot of components. See this article:

https://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d060...09/d000609.html

Filtering most of these out is better much better for you than simply breathing them in. The mask I use is a North half-face respirator, #7700-30L (for Large). I use it with the cartridge for HEPA filtration, #DOP12H4. They also make a much larger cartridge which is a combination of an Organic Vapor and HEPA filter, and it costs about $8 for a set of two cartridges (I used them with a full-face respirator when I was pouring solvent chemicals from our process lab into a large drum for hazardous waste disposal. Here's North's website for this mask:

https://www.northsafety.com/usa/en/bs....html?GID=3788

Here is the filter which will get just about anything that a diesel exhaust engine can send your way (except the ultra-fine particles):

https://www.northsafety.com/usa/en/bs....html?GID=3766

But I am using this cartridge, as I am mainly interested in the HEPA filtration of particles:

https://www.northsafety.com/usa/en/bs....html?GID=3763

You can get these at Safety Supply stores (see your local listings), or look on-line at:

https://www.labsafety.com/search/defa...8&Nu=dept%5Fid

How do drivers react? Well, I used them for awhile last year, without much reaction that I saw at all.

How do I react? They were warmer, and my glasses did not fog up much when using them.

Why aren't I using it now? Well, we've had 38 or so days with only one or two without measureable rain, so the pollution levels are low here. I do hold my breath when a bus comes by, and if I see diesel exhaust ahead of me, I have at times stopped and waited for it to dissipate before entering the area where it was. So far, that strategy seems to be holding up pretty well.

Next spring and summer, if the pollution levels go up, I'll again be wearing the mask.

John

PS--for some reason the links didn't work, and I have now tried replacing them (they could not be copied). Here is the home site if this doesn't work:

https://www.northsafety.com/bs_splash.html?PAGEID=10836

steve urow

Hello,

regarding a "best" mask for my running outside (I bike too but run more)

MOLDEX® R95 Particulate Respirators with Handystrap™
https://www.labsafety.com/search/5479...sredirect=true
I am going to order and try these

robmcl

This was a good thread to bump up. I was not aware of it before and this topic has been discussed in other threads. As someone who works in the chemical industry I can second that respirator/mask issue is not necessarily simple. This thread does a good job of explaining that.

zippered

yeah, that's why i got rid of the one i had. i felt like i was going to pass out from all the effort it took trying to suck in enough oxygen. sometimes if i get stuck behind a particularly bad vehicle i'll pull over and let them go ahead. or make lots of coughing/disgusted noises and hold my nose, just in case anyone is paying attention.

tdister

This is an interesting read for those who feel relieved when a gasser is near vs an oil burner

https://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=8&gl=us

Sir Bikesalot

Check out this mask from Respro. I started searching for a respirator after I read that article about diesel fumes causing heart problems. This product seems to be ideal for city commuting...on paper anyway. I've ordered one and will test it out for myself.

The Respro Sportsta mask combines HEPA-type filtration performance associated with sub-micron pollutants such as pollen and other irritant dusts, with a lightweight Neotex aerated mask. The Respro mask offers maximum ventilation without sacrificing filtration and to maximize rider performance, state of the art Powa valves are a standard feature and a must for all who ride to their limits.
The Respro mask conforms to European Standard EN149FFP1(S) for solid aerosol particles and is usable in all outdoor sports pursuits requiring respiratory protection.

Usable for sports activities, pollution avoidance, and as a cold weather mask
Filters out sub-micron particulates, including:
pollen dust
irritant dusts
clay dust
black smoke
exhaust emissions
diesel particulates
Rapid airflow valve system offers low breathing resistance
Velcro fastening fits without fuss and is fully adjustable
Made from neoprene - durable and washable
Replaceable filter lasts approximately 150 hours

https://www.allergybegone.com/confacmaslar.html

John C. Ratliff

Just so you'll know, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health maintains a "Certified Equipment List" for respiratory protection. You can check it here:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topic...L/default.html

https://www2a.cdc.gov/drds/cel/cel_form_code.asp

If a respirator is not certified by NIOSH, you cannot assume that you'll be fully protected against toxic substances. There is a list of manufacturers on this site, and Moldex is one of them (it is on the Certified Equipment List).

I could not find the Respro Sportsta respirator on that list. I note that it is advertised as meeting the European Standard EN149FFP1(S) for solid aerosol particles. When I try to search the standard, all I get is advertisements. So I went to the EN Standards Index:

https://en-standards.standardsdirect.org/

I could not see that one listed. So I went to EN148 to take a look. I got into an index which should have the EN149 standards listed, and do not find this one:

https://en-standards.standardsdirect....4_list_34.html

This doesn't mean it's not there, only that I cannot find it. I would therefore be rather cautious about this respirator.

Since I posted the above about diesel not being filtered by N95 respirators, I attended the American Industrial Hygiene Conference and Exposition (AIHce) is Philadelphia this spring. I attended a Roundtable discussion by leading experts in nanoparticles, and diesel exhaust did come up. Apparently, there are now some studies which show that nanoparticles are filtered out by the N-99 particle respirators. Here is the home page for NIOSH Safety and Health Topic: Nanotechnology:

https://www2a.cdc.gov/niosh-nil/index.asp

NIOSH has yet to really address the issue of personal protective equipment (PPE, or respirators) for nanoparticles. But I asked this question directly of one of the NIOSH speakers, who happened to be a bicyclist, "Should we be wearing a respirator when bicycling in traffic?" He answered that he did not, and was relying upon the clearing mechanism of his lungs to get rid of the particles.

But this was before the recent The New England Journal of Medicine article by N.L. Mills and Others titled "Ischemic and Thrombotic Effects of Dilute Diesel-Exhaust Inhalation in Men with Coronary Heart Disease." There is an editorial along with that, titled "Air Pollution, Exercise, and Cardiovascular Risk," by M.A. Mittleman. Here are a few sentences from that editorial:
To me, it means that I have dusted off my respirator, and it is now on my bike. My bike route to and from work normally carries me on bike paths, back roads, and perpendicular to major traffic, thereby decreasing the potential for diesel exposure. But yesterday, when a dump truck passed and laid down a virtual curtain of diesel exhaust, the respirator came out and for the last 3/4 of a mile, I wore it.

I'm using a North 7700-30L half-face respirator (large) with HEPA filters (DOP12H4, colored purple). This type of respirator has an advantage over the ones above, in that the half-face respirator can be washed after each use, if needed. The cartridges can also be replaced if they become clogged (they are more efficient with time for particles). This does not filter vapors or gases, so CO and benzene will go right through. But the diesel particles will be filtered. I am not advocating North's respirators, as Wilson, 3M, and others make equally effective respirators. I am advocating this type of respirator. Here is what it looks like:

https://www.labsafety.com/store/Safet...oredirect=true
(See the EZ-Facts sheets on the side of this page; the HEPA filter is the 41590 P100 Filter shown in the link "View respirator cartridge, filter and accessory charts.)

By the way, LabSafety is a good source for this kind of equipment. There are also local safety supply houses which can give good advise and have good equipment. I also use Sanderson Safety and Supply in Portland, Oregon if your are around here:

https://www.sandersonsafety.com/

In the Seattle are, there is Safety & Supply Co.:

https://www.safetyandsupply.com/home.asp

There are many, many more throughout the world, but go to a reputable safety supply house, and make sure of the certification of the respirator you pick up.

John

tpelle

Good discussion.

Someone mention SCBA earlier.

I'm retired from the fire department, and so have a lot of experience with SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus). These are the units that are somewhat similar to the scuba gear that divers wear. Basically there are two types found in general use - demand units (no longer sold), and pressure-demand units.

In both cases the firefighter wears a full-face mask which is connected to a tank of compressed air worn on his back. There are 30-minute tanks and there are 60-minute tanks, as determined by the pressure that the tank can be charged to,, and the capacity of the tank.

The old-stype demand masks have a very simple pressure regulator that, when one inhaled (and thereby created a negative pressure in the mask) caused the regulator to open and allow fresh air to flow from the bottle into the mask. There was also an exhalation valve that, when one exhaled (and thereby created a positive pressure inside the mask) opened the exhalation valve to allow ones exhaled air to be exhausted into the general atmosphere.

The newer style are pressure-demand masks, with the principle difference being that a slight positiove pressure is maintained inside the facemask. Presuming that the firefighter is operating in what is known as an IDLH environment (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) charged with toxic gasses, the slight positive pressue inside the mask meant that, if there were any leaks in the facepiece or a less-than-perfect seal between the firefighter's face and the facemask, the slight pressure inside the mask would prevent contamination of the atmosphere inside the mask. The old demand mask, requiring one to pull a negative pressure inside the mask, would tend to pull the outside toxic environment inside the mask to be inhaled.

Now, having said all that, I will tell you that it is not easy to breathe in one of these things while doing any sort of strenuous work. The newer pressure-demand units are a little better in that you don't have to "suck" inside the mask to inhale, but in both types you have to push your exhalations out. And those 30-minute and 60-minute ratings.....don't know where they came up with those. Maybe if you wore the thing sitting in an easy chair, I guess, but doing any kind of work? No way. I personally sucked two 30-minute bottles down in 15 minutes flat at a fire once.

Also, these things are very heavy. A pressure tank that can hold 2200 PSI (30-minute) or 4500 PSI (60-minute) has to be made strong, even if it is carbon fiber, or spun aluminum. Heck, when Ii started on the job the bottles were steel! And one still has the backpack harness, regulator, hoses, etc. to lug around.

Another expense with these things that make them impractical for the average joe is where to get them filled - you just can't hook 'em up to the air hose at the filling station. It's gotta be a compressor system rated for breathing air. A scuba shop would probably be able to do it, though.

But then there's hydrostatic testing of the tank, though.

And this is a system that provides clean air under pressure from a tank.

I can't imagine having to pull air through a filtration system with lung power alone.

And are the filters really effective? (I guess even if they're only partially effective they're better than nothing, though.)

Maybe some sort of mechanical ventilation system that forces air through a filter? But then how does one power the system?

Look at the pictures of the Chinese riding around on their cruisers, though, wearing those paper surgical masks.

APTokyo

I made a post a while back about my Respro. You can see it in my picture. I'm very happy with mine, but I have stopped using it during the summer as it was just too hot and a little difficult to drink with. As the weather is cooling off though, I'll be wearing it again every day. Check out my filter pictures. That's a lot of funk.

John C. Ratliff

tpelle,

SCBAs are for environments "Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health," also known as IDLH. They really are not appropriate for bicycle use, as you probably know.

Concerning surgical masks, they are actually not respiratory protection. Their function is to keep surgeons and other medical personnel from contaminating a surgical site (keeping contamination in, rather than pollution out). They may make some feel good about wearing them for pollution, but because they don't make a seal around the face, they really do not work well for things like diesel exhaust nanoparticles.

John