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The build begins - Nishiki Prestige 25"

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The build begins - Nishiki Prestige 25"

Old 08-22-11, 02:41 PM
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The build begins - Nishiki Prestige 25"

So, I'm a new poster - seemed appropriate to join, and to put up my new build-to-be in its nascent stage, after so much time spent consulting old threads for all the helpful tidbits. I just picked picked up a Nishiki Prestige frame, 25" to c-to-t, 62cm c-to-c. Metallic green (sorta blue-green to my eye) with brand/model in yellow (on the downtube and front of the top, as per standard). Came with original SunTour Cyclone shifters, seat post bolt (unknown), seatpost (Sugino) and headset (unknown). A few paint chips, notably some evidence that a previous rider dropped his chain. Generally in pretty damn fine condition, from what I can tell (but what do I know). Take a look at these pics of the frame & fork:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669
https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669
https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669

And here's the serial number, though I don't know if anyone has these figured out:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669

My only issue at the moment, first task as it were, is with a little bit of rust in two locations. The first is inside the seat tube, and I think this is just a patina, probably not serious (but again, what do I know?):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669

Secondly, there is rust in the cable guides on the top tube, and this looks a little for substantive. The guy who passed the frame along suggested that this could be controlled using anti-corrosion product of some kind. I'll have to look this up, as I don't like the look of these:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669
https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...57627370357669

You can take a look at more photos of this bike - and of a garage-found Norco Magnum that I fixed up this week, but found too small, and of the old (ca. 1983-4?) black 25" Norco (Shimano 600 Arabesque, etc.) that I let go when leaving Montreal - and which inspired my search for a kick-ass Kawamura frame to build! Flickr set here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/baddest...7627370357669/

As for what I have planned for the Nishiki Prestige (once I deal with that rust), I'm not 100% sure.

Thinking I'll put on some 1980s Shimano 105 SLR brakes and levers, for a couple of reasons. I have the levers, but not the brakes, which I believe come in the appropriate 'old standard' 47-57mm as well the 'new standard'...though I haven't come by any yet. Aero levers, so I can clean up the cable situation a bit - and I hear that these are just great brakes (plus they're more or less contemporaneous with the frame, and have a suitable 'look'). The frame will take either nutted or allen brakes, it seems (the old ones are nutted, but I saw the seller demonstrate that an allen-type modern brake fits).

Wondering about a stem and bars - I think I want a bit of distance, I'm 6'3" and a 60cm (c-to-c) Norco with the same top tube measurement and a decently long stem (110mm?) feels like I could still use a bit more room. Also thinking about cranks - maybe the Sugino VP 110 that would have been in there originally? Or Sugino Maxy, 80s 600 or Dura-Ace? I dunno. Probably won't go with the original Cyclone derailleur set-up unless I get a good deal on a clean FD/RD pair to go with the shifters. Alternately, I might go with 80s 105 or 600 (Arabesque?) And a nicely worn-in Turbo or Avocet leather saddle.

As for wheels, there's a shop in Vancouver (where I live) called Jet Grrl Cycles that comes highly recommended by a friend who is a bike mechanic (and others) - I'm told they build great wheels. I want a truly bomb-proof set to got with the Prestige, and I'm thinking that I can get something with a high spoke-count (36?) laced onto either modern 105 hubs, or - maybe, if I feel rich and become convinced that it might actually be worth it - a set of NOS NIB Shimano 600 EX hubs, including cassette...for $300, I have a line on these in Quebec. But I don't usually feel that rich! Spacing is perfect though, not even the incidental modification of a 130mm hub in a 126 gap. Maybe used. Wolber rims would be my dream (Super Champion Alpine?), but I may concede to modernity, particularly if the wheel-builder feels that might be the way to go (or the cost of Wolbers on ebay scares me off). Any recommendations for what I might do here to keep the ride tops, the look consistent, and the price right? I'm a big guy - 6'3", 250lbs - so I need wheels that'll carry that, sometimes a backpack full of books, without fail.

And away we go...
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Old 08-22-11, 02:50 PM
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Nice frame!
As for the cable guide rust, you can try to dip q-tips in oxalic acid and stuff them into the guides. Should loosen most of the rust.

Other than that, follow up with a rust converter, Canadian Tire should have them. I like Permatex brand. There's also POR. Once applied, the rust turns a purple/black inert coating. Once dry, paint over it.
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Old 08-22-11, 03:47 PM
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Thanks WNG! I'm off to the hardware store...
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Old 08-22-11, 05:45 PM
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Just some thoughts on your wheel options. Since you're a big guy, definitely go for a bombproof build. 36-hole and 14G spokes. Chasing after NOS vintage parts can get very expensive. I can't say I know pricing for NOS 600 EX hubs in Canada, but that seems high. I realize stuff is scarcer and costlier up there. (Lived in MTL)
I'd go the 105 freehub route. Stronger, reliable, smooth, and can handle 7-10 speed set ups. If they are being professionally built, ask about alternative lacing, a 2x NDS/3x DS should yield a more reliable wheel. I like the Velocity offset rim for your purposes. Less dish, more strength for your load requirements.
I think it's safe to lace as you please up front...radial, 2x, 3x, crowsfoot. All will be strong at 36 holed.

Old hubs and rims are some beautiful equipment, but if you're starting from scratch...take advantage of modern wheel options for their advantages.
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Old 08-22-11, 06:08 PM
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Yeah, the 105 freehub option seems a lot more economical, and versatile. And fits just as nicely as the 126mm vintage hubs in a steel frame like this.

I don't know anything about lacing patterns - I'll look into it, and definitely ask about alternative lacing when I go in to chat about getting these wheels built. And chasing Wolbers (these held real well on my old Norco - and a great look, it's true - which is why I like them) is probably not worth the trouble either...so I'll check out the Velocity offset and other such modern offerings, too.
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Old 09-13-11, 10:06 PM
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Moving forward...

The build continues, with the addition of an Avocet Racing II saddle, Shimano R650 brakes, and a Cinelli 1R stem (120mm), plus (not pictured, obviously) Cinelli Campione del Mundo bars & Shimano 105 SLR levers (BL-1051, with the SLR logo & aesthetically pleasing ridges on the levers):



Now: DRIVETRAIN! Meeting tomorrow with the LBS whiz who will likely be building my 'bombproof' wheels - I'm a big guy, so it's an important step. Have to decide on 7-8-9 setup & corresponding components, at least in principle. And I'm getting antsy to assemble & ride before the season up here on the Northwest coast turns all grey for another 6 months! Thinking about 7, then I can run Suntour Cyclone derailleurs on this one as per original (might have a line on a Cyclone RD, and might use a stand-in for the FD until I track down a match). Thinking a 105, 600 or Sugino crank, but still having trouble finding a good set in 175mm! The one thing that's holding me up...
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Old 09-13-11, 10:39 PM
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looks really good thus far. that saddle matches really well with the bike. cinelli stem and bars is a nice touch as well. cant wait to see more. the look of bikes being built is very appealing to me. almost more so then a complete bike haha
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Old 09-13-11, 11:24 PM
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Funnily enough, the font on the saddle is exactly the same as the 'Prestige' lettering on the frame, same 'E', same 'T'...lucky accident, as I noticed this only after picking up the saddle! I also have a rescued Avocet o2 saddle (I bought it for lost and re-glued some loose frabric/leather) in blue and red that clashes nicely (but matches the 'Tange 2' decal!), but the one pictured is the clear match, and comfy enough. I'll definitely post pics of further evolutions, though it might be a few weeks as I get wheels built and track down that elusive perfect-match Shimano/Sugino(?) 175mm crankset!
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Old 09-14-11, 12:02 AM
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This is going to be a really nice bike. Congrats on an enviable find.

A couple of suggestions — my 2 cents worth:

* Before you go further, get the frame checked out. You could "string it up" before hand. (See randyjawa's My Ten Speeds site. He has a primer on checking out frame alignment.) When the shop aligns the rear dropouts, they can center the stays without delay and save you shop time. (I have not had a frame yet that has come to me with aligned drop-outs. )

* WNG wrote:
Chasing after NOS vintage parts can get very expensive.
+that! So if you are feeling the pinch, you might keep this in mind. New production retro parts if anything are more rife on the ground than in preceding years. Nitto produces some very nice retro parts. Shimano has freewheels made in China under contract. They are cheap, reliable and light. The cog tooth counts are decidedly for the amateur — not vintage racing — which is fine for this old fart. Shimano has a lever set that is not part of a group set — BL-400. Aero (of course), return spring and excellent gums — and inexpensive. The Dia-Compe catalogue has some nice parts. Some people may sniff at this, but if I am going to build a mish mash and optimize each piece for dollar value return, Dia-Compe stuff is an option. (Eg. The Dia-Compe BR-101 brakes in high finish alloy are on my SS Simplon. They perform very well, are inexpensive and they look right on the vintage frame. Pro Keirin racers use them on their road trainers here in Japan.) Velo Orange has some excellent parts.

Actually, I think as you do — the complete group of 600 Arabesque to build up my Woodrup (531c) would make me a happy dude indeed. But I just cannot afford it.

* In March I checked out a bike shop that my daughter's boyfriend is familiar with — in Vancouver, my hometown. I may have the card somewhere, but it is on Main between Hastings and Alexander on the west side. I met the owner/proprietor. Nice guy, and he should know his stuff as he has some really first rate frames hanging up around the shop. I had to get out of there before going insane! Another shop that impressed me is a new place on Hastings — south side east of Nanaimo. Hope I have that right. The owner did a small job for me. He seemed a serious dude — not some tinkerer pretending to be a mechanic.

* Some model enamel should patch up those scars in the paint. Metallic blues are not that hard to come by. Just make sure its enamel. There are ranges of model paints these days that are sold cuz they are safer for youngsters to use — waterborne acrylics and so on.

Please keep us posted on this build.
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Old 09-14-11, 04:49 AM
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Nice bicycle and my first question is how does it ride? If you are restoring or refurbishing the bicycle before test riding it, you might be making a big mistake. Vintage road bicycles are pretty fragile and often times experience frame or fork trauma (bent or out of true) that will negatively impact ride quality.

I always get my found bikes ride-able first and then ride them before spending any money on them. Failure to do so might result in great disappointment, as was the case with my first attempt at restoration/refurbishment. That bicycle, Big Green, was too big for me, sported a bent frame and was of minimal entry level value. I spent way too much on something I could not ride or sell to someone who did fit the bicycle.

So, ride it first and not just for two minutes. Get to know the bike over a few rides and then, if you like it, build away. You will appreciate the experience and, possibly, save yourself a great deal of grief and cash.

Hope this is a help.
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Old 09-14-11, 05:52 AM
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randyjawa
Nice bicycle and my first question is how does it ride? If you are restoring or refurbishing the bicycle before test riding it, you might be making a big mistake. Vintage road bicycles are pretty fragile and often times experience frame or fork trauma (bent or out of true) that will negatively impact ride quality.
I quite agree! But there is another story.

I've bought only one complete bicycle in the past 28 years. (94-95 Trek 930.) My other bikes all began as builds on frame-sets. And I have three more lined up that I have to do — only one of them being my ride — and only two of them a size I can ride. So what to do when you cannot test ride the frame? For the record ... and in hope that my 2 cents will be a worthwhile contribution to those new to the "passion", here goes:

First, I would recommend that newcomers seek out Randy's web site article about frames at My Ten Speeds. This is the most succinct and instructive primer on the subject of assessment that I've found after a lot of trolling in the deeps seas of the darkened arts of frame making.

The visual inspection is the first step. (You have most likely done this already.) Then the more detailed steps should be done with special tools by a skilled person. In my opinion, these things are important and under-valued. My projects to date have included a trip to a frame maker. I've asked him to check out the frame and align the drop-outs. Every time there were things Mastumoto-san had to correct and dial in.

Do not be surprised to find that there are some people who do not ascribe to the resetting of frames. Arguments have arisen about the necessity. You be the judge there. And further, these recommendations only concern steel. For example, I did not touch my epoxy bonded Vitus 979. Al and exotic materials are not included here.

For myself, I am not going to do another project without stringing the frame. Decades ago I did this on motorcycles. More recently I was inspired by a photo in Dawes Man's thread concerning the restoration of his Kataura Silk. Therein is a photo of a notable Japanese craftsman executing this process. Still later I found it all described in Randy's frame article.

Having serviced the frame, I have a good chance of coming out OK. If the frame has been severely pranged in the past, it should show up in the measurements. If it is out of adjustment — spreading stays, bent drop-outs and so on — they will be corrected. Of course surprises can happen and spring out of nowhere, as in the rest of life. But if one needs a total guarantee, a new bike with a good warranty is the only answer. That is not meant as a snide comment, but merely as a reminder that we in C&V are often restorers of well-used machines. Gremlins come as a matter of course. We hope to never see them, but rejoice in their excision.

Anyway, you mikemowbz, are starting out on a frame-up build ... and I hope that we can be of some help. It may ride perfectly as it sits now, but Randy has a point. Besides, the check-out process is part of the fun ... part of the ride. I'm still learning about it.

Once again, please keep us up to date.
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Old 09-14-11, 06:52 AM
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The Nishiki Prestige is a fine bike. You are starting with a good base.
+1 to the comments about checking the frame. The string test is a good first action.

By starting with a raw frame, you have chosen a relatively expensive path, but as you are already reckoning, it gives you virtually unlimited choices on your complements, and the finished product will truly be your own creation. Good luck with your build, and in finding the best components at the very best prices.

Don't discount new parts either - Wider Nitto Noodle bars and Tektro or new Diacompe brakes with Koolstop pads may be good choices for you.
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Old 09-14-11, 09:19 PM
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Thanks for the advice all. Barring specific problems with the frame (and I'm having a local mechanic recommended by a knowledgeable friend look at that - fingers crossed - though I'll have to check out the resources mentioned, as I'm interested in getting more savvy on these kinds of things), I'm at least not concerned about suitability in terms of size/geometry - my favourite ride ever was an extremely similar CroMo Kawamura frame, in exactly the same size (the black Norco linked in the pics posed initially). This is, in effect, my much-improved replacement for that bike, which I had to sell 5000km from where I've landed (though I'll have to do without the Arabesque - which would suit this one less well in any case).

It will be a mix of old & new, components-wise: decided today on a new Shimano 105 crankset along with the wheels my recommended LBS mechanic will be building up from 105 hubs (still deciding between two different rims). This on top of the used, slightly scratched, but very functional Cinelli bar/stem added a little while ago, used 105 SLR levers, and the new (and very modern) Shimano R650 brakes I got in NYC recently as a take-off from a new bike they'd recently sold. Just picked up a set of 80s NOS MKS AR-2 pedals on ebay today for only a hair more than they'd be for the modern versions at the LBS...so all I'm really looking for is the derailleurs, and I'm thinking of trying to pick up some Suntour Cyclone (maybe a Superbe FD) to restore the original setup in this regard at least - and to match the Suntour shifters I started out with.

Even if there's some trouble that puts me in the hunt for another frame (and I'm pretty optimistic - though now, I think, a little more cautious about such things in general), I've put together practically everything I need to get a really nice ride out on the road...

Might be a little while as I get the wheels built and sort out a few non-bike-related projects, but I'll be sure to keep everyone informed when it starts coming together - pictures and a full report to come!
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Old 11-12-11, 08:57 PM
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It all comes together

So, the build is complete! A couple of hiccups: went down to a 7sp hyperglide cassette plus spacer rather than the 8 originally intended, and the medium-reach brakes I specifically sussed out on the advice of the guy who sold me the frame (who told me the Cyclone calipers he took off were 47-57mm) turn out to have been unecessary...short-reach would have done, and these barely fit with the new 700c rims. But in any case, it rides! Nothing more needs to be done, although I may well replace those brakes at some point...

Much appreciation to Tracy at Jett Grrl Bikes in Vancouver for building the wheels and putting stuff together, generally making up for my weaknesses with a wrench.

The renewed and revamped 25" Nishiki Prestige (1985/6) got it's first taste of Vancouver - a brisk ride in the pouring rain, sloshing over fallen leaves and up & down the hilly streets of East Van. Had to get it home, right? I even picked up some of those thin plastic removable fender and slapped 'em on in the shop, it just looked so direly grey...

Without further ado - PICS!
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