Pace line efficiency?

[ilovecycling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbqZC...eature=related

How is constantly accelerating and decelerating like this efficient? The constant rotation and exposure to new wind angles along with the constant acceleration to get to the front seems like a huge waste of energy. I understand the concept of this strategy, but wouldn't it make more sense if they held the position for at least 5 minutes or more?

[datlas]

I didn't look at the video but a well organized paceline should have NO ACCELERATION.

Properly done, it's a thing of beauty and efficiency.

If the idiot who gets to the front accelerates, it causes yo-yo/accordion effect that mitigates a lot of the benefits.

[rbart4506]

They aren't accelerating to the front...You decelerate to the back...You take wind as you decelerate and therefore protect the riders coming up the other side...It is the most efficient way for a group to survive in a break and\or catch on to the break/group...

Nice vid BTW...Really shows a rotating paceline should work...Makes me want to get out there and hammer!

[Homebrew01]

I can't see the video right now, but a paceline is efficient because you share the load of riding in the wind. The following riders get to spend less energy by drafting. A good paceline goes at a steady pace, not accelerating and decelerating.
Try it, you'll like it.

[datlas]

I think some of the knuckleheads in my club need to watch that video. These guys are doing a good job. The main thing is, when you come to the front, is don't accelerate....just keep the pace going...

[Grumpy McTrumpy]

I can't see the video right now

it's the Kelly Benefit team doing circular paceline on the Pacific Coast Highway with lousy music in the background.

at one point they go blowing by a large group ride as if it was standing still.

[ilovecycling]

When I said accelerating and decelerating, I didn't mean the guy who's pulling at the front, but the guy who is coming up the right side from the back every minute or so. The concept is clear to me, but it seems that it would make more sense if the leader pulled for longer than they show in that video. Yes they are pulling for longer, but then they get a longer break when it's their turn to hide in the slip stream. It just seems that the constant hard acceleration required to move from the back to the front every minute would be a larger waste of energy reserves than rotating less often.

[mmmdonuts]

There is something to both arguments. It is more efficient for the riders because each one gets to rest a little. It is more efficient for the group because rested riders can maintain a higher speed. But some efficiency and average speed is lost because the rotation means you loose a bike length each time a rider comes off the front. So mathematically if you do fewer rotations at the same speed the group can cover more distance for the same ride time. The trick for maximum efficiency is to find that balance.

This would really apply to a well drilled and very fit time trial team in a TTT.

[gettingold]

I found out the hard way recently how efficient it is. Riding with 7 or 8 others into a strong headwind on a fairly brisk group ride. Dropped a chain approaching a busy intersection and didn't realize it. Went to start out and voila - no chain. Only took me about a 25 second delay to fix the chain and cross the intersection. Took me the next 5 or 6 miles of very heavy lifting to catch the group. Was totally spent when I finally caught them.

[Grumpy McTrumpy]

When I said accelerating and decelerating, I didn't mean the guy who's pulling at the front, but the guy who is coming up the right side from the back every minute or so. The concept is clear to me, but it seems that it would make more sense if the leader pulled for longer than they show in that video. Yes they are pulling for longer, but then they get a longer break when it's their turn to hide in the slip stream. It just seems that the constant hard acceleration required to move from the back to the front every minute would be a larger waste of energy reserves than rotating less often.

some things cannot be taught. they must be lived.

[ilovecycling]

Yeah, I saw that one too.

My question is not whether or not pace lines are efficient, but what frequency of rotation makes them most efficient?

[Grumpy McTrumpy]

this page has a link to a well-made movie that discusses this type of riding. (link at bottom of page)

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/...of_pace_riders

[Grumpy McTrumpy]

Yeah, I saw that one too.

My question is not whether or not pace lines are efficient, but what frequency of rotation makes them most efficient?

as I said, some things must be lived. I doubt that anything anyone says in here is going to make up for experience, especially since you are responding with resistance.

As far as the five minute thing goes... In my experience, a 5 minute pull at race pace is a suicide mission. It's fine if you are going to drop out of the race anyway and are just helping teammates out.

The last time I did a TTT, we took pulls that were about 30 seconds. That is pretty good for maintaining a high rate of speed, but you are taking a chance that you won't be able to rejoin the rotation after your pull.

Chasing down a break usually requires taking committed pulls, but that is generally because you need to sacrifice a few riders to do it, and the best way to maximize speed at the front in that case is to have the few riders who are committed stay up there for a little while so you don't waste time on constant rotation (not to mention the important fact that the rest of the peloton sitting on tends to get in the way of a smooth circle)

The circle is great for maintaining equal effort in a mid-sized group like a breakaway.

[cyclezen]

it's the Kelly Benefit team doing circular paceline on the Pacific Coast Highway with lousy music in the background.

at one point they go blowing by a large group ride as if it was standing still.

thx

... a nice Team TT is a super thing
but expecting same from some throw-together group/club ride is unrealistic.
1st, everyone has their own agenda as to the ride purpose. if the ride is intended to be organized 'paceline', fine. But if not, don;t expect anyone to ride your ride just cause you want them to...
Sometimes a steady paceline happens, sometimes not...

re OP's efficiency
intent often trumps efficiency

if in a comeptitive situation, you have a small group, say 3 or 4 riders, who are attempting to get off the front of a large group, they motor hard and fast with frequent changes. Need to get some distance between themselves and the group behind - enough that the group behind finds it too hard to organize and bridge back.
SO frequent changes so you can keep a high tempo.
Once away, the intent is to stay away, so longer pulls at more comfortable effort which all break members can handle, until the point where it no longer is beneficial for any or all members.

Intent over rides efficiency...

except in TTT

the guys last wk were pissed that I jumped 5-6 times instead of doin the paceline dance. I told them 'tough'. I wasn't doin the ride to do a 22-23 mph paceline to boredom. If they didn;t like, they could always reverse drop me and let me go...
The jumps eventually whittled the group in half and the pace up'd enough to make it 'interesting'...
I wasn;t there to slow dance...

[kleinboogie]

They're not accelerating up to the front as has been said but once you're on the front your power output will increase to hold speed since you and wind are doing battle. I made a video of us in a paceline and in the draft I'm doing maybe 170-200 watts. Once I'm in the wind that goes up to 350 watts. That was ~20-30 second rotations (long pulls). When we do short pulls the speed is usually higher so power output is higher but for shorter periods.

What can happen though is the group may compensate for a slower rider by gradually accelerating. I'll repeat, gradual increase in speed to allow the group to adapt. It sucks when riders don't understand this and do what you suggest and abruptly accelerate. It brings pain and contempt. GL

[svtmike]

If the paceline is well-matched, the short pulls will be above most of the riders aerobic thresholds, while they will be just under threshold power when in the draft. This allows everyone to ride at a pace that any of the riders on their own would be unable to maintain. The short duration is necessary so that the rider can recover enough for another short anaerobic pull when he is back at the front.

A few of us got our group to do a rotating line for a while this summer, and it really was a gas. We covered ground much faster than we do with longer pulls at threshold, but it did require a bit more concentration than a slower rotation.

[ilovecycling]

I appreciate the responses so far guys. I just recently started doing group rides and it's a lot more fun than riding alone. I would be scared to do a pace line with the people that do the club rides with me because there is already too much acceleration and deceleration as it is. It is quite annoying. Trying to ride in a real pace line with the same people is just asking for trouble. I would like to try it though in a smaller group of trusted riders (which I don't exactly have) to see what kind of numbers I put up compared to riding alone or in standard peloton formation.

[caloso]

If you get to the front and accelerate, we're going to yell at you.

[carpediemracing]

some things cannot be taught. they must be lived.

I was going to say "This is like sex. You can read about it, look at pictures, watch videos, whatever, but to actually know it you have to do it."

Also, clarification on "most efficient" - if you look at the ProTour TTT squads, they typically do a single paceline. When I started racing the double was the Holy Grail of pacelines. Recently (5-7 years ago) when various squads started targeting the TTT, teams gravitate towards single paceline.

The problem is that every time someone pulls off the front of the paceline, the paceline loses 6-7 feet of distance (because the front 6-7 feet of the paceline suddenly went away).

With a double paceline (or rotating paceline) you lose the front rider every 5-10 seconds, so you lose 6-7 feet every 5-10 seconds. Advantage is that you're always sheltered except when pulling. Better for steady type racers.

Single paceline you lose the front person about every 20 seconds, so you lose half the distance. Disadvantage is that you're not sheltered when dropping back so typically the hardest effort is getting back into the paceline. Advantage is you have the most resting time. Better for surging type riders.

[mmmdonuts]

CDR, I think your definitions of single and double pacelines are different from those of many others. Many understand a rotating paceline (two columns) to be a single and two rotating pacelines (four columns) a double.

It could be a regional thing...

[carpediemracing]

CDR, I think your definitions of single and double pacelines are different from those of many others. Many understand a rotating paceline (two columns) to be a single and two rotating pacelines (four columns) a double.

It could be a regional thing...

No, I'm wrong. I agree with the following, so I'm talking rotating pacelines, not double.

Single Double Rotating Echelon

[Bob Dopolina]

CDR, I think your definitions of single and double pacelines are different from those of many others. Many understand a rotating paceline (two columns) to be a single and two rotating pacelines (four columns) a double.

It could be a regional thing...

I would say that the video shows an echelon which means the entire group is in constant rotation. This is the fastest and most efficient way to ride.

A single paceline is one where someone pulls for a short time (30 seconds to 1 minute), signals and then pulls off. They drift to the back and slip into the last position. This is the most common group riding method.

A double paceline are two single pacelins side by side and is usually for warming up or cooling down.

EDIT: Yeah, what CDR said.

[mmmdonuts]

I would say that the video shows an echelon which means the entire group is in constant rotation. This is the fastest and most efficient way to ride.

A single paceline is one where someone pulls for a short time (30 seconds to 1 minute), signals and then pulls off. They drift to the back and slip into the last position. This is the most common group riding method.

A double paceline are two single pacelins side by side and is usually for warming up or cooling down.

EDIT: Yeah, what CDR said.

I get that. My comment was about single vs. double. The diagram is a good representation.

[MajorMantra]

A single paceline is one where someone pulls for a short time (30 seconds to 1 minute), signals and then pulls off. They drift to the back and slip into the last position. This is the most common group riding method.

A double paceline are two single pacelins side by side and is usually for warming up or cooling down.

Interesting. I wander if this reflects a different road culture. Round here fast groups rides are invariably a rotating paceline (which we call a chaingang) and slower rides (or warmups/warm downs) are usually a two abreast group with no formal structure. Large groups rarely single up (ride single file) but smaller ones sometimes do depending on traffic.

[Bob Dopolina]

Interesting. I wander if this reflects a different road culture. Round here fast groups rides are invariably a rotating paceline (which we call a chaingang) and slower rides (or warmups/warm downs) are usually a two abreast group with no formal structure. Large groups rarely single up (ride single file) but smaller ones sometimes do depending on traffic.

No matter how big the group is if it is moving quickly it is single file at the front with people taking pulls and then pulling off.

That is not an echelon. It is a paceline. I think many people are confusing the two because they've never ridden in an echelon.