Pace line efficiency?

[BarracksSi]

Is there a practical limit to the number of riders in a rotating paceline?

[Gluteus]

Is there a practical limit to the number of riders in a rotating paceline?

I think it depends more on how experienced and familiar with each other are the riders, than the absolute number. In our weekly riders whenever a core of 7 to 12 guys (who usually ride at similar speed and are "regulars") do the rotating paceline, it goes pretty smoothly. We can continue the rotation even when doing 90 degrees turns (with minimal disruption).
When riders that are not familiar with the "system" get involved, it frequently turns into a cluster**ck.

[Bob Dopolina]

What is this rotating paceline you all speak of?

A paceline doesn't rotate. An echelon does. Look at the illustration CDR posted. It's pretty clear.

If there is a crosswind then the number of riders in an echelon is limited by the width of the road.

Look at some of the Spring Classics. The race will break up into echelons in the strong cross winds and riders will fight to jump across the one closer to the front echelon and then try to fight their way in.

[ahsposo]

No, I'm wrong. I agree with the following, so I'm talking rotating pacelines, not double.

Single Double Rotating Echelon

What is this rotating paceline you all speak of?

A paceline doesn't rotate. An echelon does. Look at the illustration CDR posted. It's pretty clear.

If there is a crosswind then the number of riders in an echelon is limited by the width of the road.

Look at some of the Spring Classics. The race will break up into echelons in the strong cross winds and riders will fight to jump across the one closer to the front echelon and then try to fight their way in.

Third example from the left, second from the right is a rotating paceline. I remember you called a rotating paceline an echelon in the Tour for the 41 thread one morning. The difference between the two would be the direction of the wind. I do agree they are similar and one can turn into the other as the direction of the wind changes.

[Gluteus]

What is this rotating paceline you all speak of?

A paceline doesn't rotate. An echelon does. Look at the illustration CDR posted. It's pretty clear.

If there is a crosswind then the number of riders in an echelon is limited by the width of the road.

Look at some of the Spring Classics. The race will break up into echelons in the strong cross winds and riders will fight to jump across the one closer to the front echelon and then try to fight their way in.

I think most of the people refers to this, as a rotating paceline



and to this, as an echelon



ech·e·lon (sh-ln)
n.
1.
a. A formation of troops in which each unit is positioned successively to the left or right of the rear unit to form an oblique or steplike line.

[gregf83]

What is this rotating paceline you all speak of?

A paceline doesn't rotate. An echelon does. Look at the illustration CDR posted. It's pretty clear.

Ever seen geese flying? That's an echelon formation.

[big chainring]

The key is the riders are "pulling through" from behind. In a pace line with longer turns at the front the lead rider "pulls off" the front. Pulling through keeps the pace higher and encourages greater effort for a shorter period of time. This type of rotating paceline requires more concentration and teamwork. If done well with the right guys, the miles melt away.

[Fiery]

Single paceline you lose the front person about every 20 seconds, so you lose half the distance. Disadvantage is that you're not sheltered when dropping back so typically the hardest effort is getting back into the paceline. Advantage is you have the most resting time. Better for surging type riders.

Done properly, there's no effort - you slip into the line without chasing the last rider; once drafting, your pace increases to match the speed of the line without an increase in effort. It's difficult to master technically, but there's no increased physical effort in the manoeuvre.

[asgelle]

... your pace increases to match the speed of the line without an increase in effort.

Increased speed without increased effort. I think you've found the key to perpetual motion.

[climber7]

Done properly, there's no effort - you slip into the line without chasing the last rider; once drafting, your pace increases to match the speed of the line without an increase in effort. It's difficult to master technically, but there's no increased physical effort in the manoeuvre.

Increased speed without increased effort. I think you've found the key to perpetual motion.

haven't been around/posted in a while, but came back and thought this was interesting. so anyway...

haha, yeah. OP is right. fiery - you do need to accelerate, so there's some increased effort. maybe if you do it perfectly, that effort is very little, but it's still there. i've ridden in a rotating paceline with a small group for part of a race, and my legs definitely burned every time i had to make that acceleration. however, i think the energy you save from the aerodynamic advantage of the paceline far outweighs the energy you spend getting on that last wheel every minute or two.

[Bob Dopolina]

Ever seen geese flying? That's an echelon formation.

I've seen geese but never ones riding a bike.

I'd pay money to see that.

[Bob Dopolina]

Third example from the left, second from the right is a rotating paceline. I remember you called a rotating paceline an echelon in the Tour for the 41 thread one morning. The difference between the two would be the direction of the wind. I do agree they are similar and one can turn into the other as the direction of the wind changes.

I'd consider the third from the left and the 4th from the left to be the same thing. The angle and direction of rotation will change with the wind but the constant movement of the riders remains the same.

I think, in my mind, what is different between a 'rotating paceline' and an echelon is that in an echelon you move to the front and then immediately to one side (based on wind direction) whereas in any kind of paceline each rider spends some time at the front and then pulls off to one side (based on wind direction).

I my experience an echelon is much harder to keep going because you need a certain skill level with ALL the riders wheras you can teach a monkey to ride in a paceline (minus the bloody surges ).

[znomit]

I've seen geese but never one's riding a bike.

I'd pay money to see that.

Heres one stealing a Bianchi.


PM me for paypal details

[bikepro]

Yeah, I saw that one too.

My question is not whether or not pace lines are efficient, but what frequency of rotation makes them most efficient?

This depends on the strength of the individual riders. Stronger riders will normally pull longer, weaker ones less. The idea is to not pull so long that you tire and get dropped off the back.

[Pedaleur]

it's the Kelly Benefit team doing circular paceline on the Pacific Coast Highway with lousy music in the background.

at one point they go blowing by a large group ride as if it was standing still.

And no one waves...

[StanSeven]

And no one waves...

The same riders that don't wave do when I have my team jersey on or we're training in a circular paceline. I'm thinking maybe giving the finger when I'm alone

[carpediemracing]

Done properly, there's no effort - you slip into the line without chasing the last rider; once drafting, your pace increases to match the speed of the line without an increase in effort. It's difficult to master technically, but there's no increased physical effort in the manoeuvre.

I thought I was alone in the fact that I had to accelerate hard to get onto the back of a paceline. Then this year I read about one ProTour racer's powerfile/analysis from a stage of some race, a TTT stage. The racer's peak power came from efforts made to get back onto the line. I think it was a prologue, maybe the Giro?, but it was telling. I think the power was in the 1100w range to get back on, so it was a 100% effort.

I'd consider the third from the left and the 4th from the left to be the same thing. The angle and direction of rotation will change with the wind but the constant movement of the riders remains the same.

+1

I'm not sure which book says it but one book on bike racing points out that all rotating pacelines are echelons - it's just the angle that makes people change what they call it. An echelon straight on is usually called a rotating paceline, but unless you're in traffic (i.e. group ride) or you're going head on into the wind, many rotating pacelines angle one way or another, if only from slight tire overlap.

[caloso]

I would say that properly done, there's a hell of a lot of effort. It's just that it's at a level that's manageable, recoverable, and repeatable for each rider in the rotation.

[fishymamba]

I always used to think that pacelines were BS and there would be no advantage, But now I know. It makes a huge difference for me, especially because I am small compared to other riders so I get full advantage of their draft. It always fun................until it's your turn to take a pull.

Hammering in a paceline down PCH with a tail wind is the best feeling ever. It's just amazing.