Number crunching...... can a great frame-builder pay his mortgage?

[2manybikes]

Wow.. some great advice... thank for that. I totally agree that a business plan is indispensable & I intend to create one and analyze it. I have Business Plan Pro software and they make it fun. It's also needed to secure funds from kind-hearted and perhaps naive souls... It's also your road-map, blueprint and something to fall back on when everything collapses into chaos. Artistic types (like me) have traditionally had problems with business logistics and structure and so the real key here is the integration of both disciplines.... It's harder to do than most people think because creativity and structure seem to come from different parts of the brain.

I think niche building is a good idea too...as long as it's the 'right" niche! Researching the industry and the market to find that need may be part of a process however. Bike trucks, food vendor bikes and rickshaw bikes seem to be an interesting avenue for that.

It does look difficult to undertake....and quite a journey...... but then I see a guy like Sacha White who started in his early 20's, has only been doing it for 9 years and has a 5-year waiting list. Same with Richard Sachs.... (7 year waiting list). But yeah... If there are only a few guys out of 500 making it..... then its bad. I'll do a little market research to get a better picture of whose getting the money and what percentage of the total industry they represent.

"There aren't builders that want to take on an apprentice" OK... Maybe this is a way for builders to subsidize their income? I'd be happy to pay (a reasonable amount) to apprentice for a month at a builders shop......while doing grunt work, office work, web site, sales, advertising and all related company work. Isn't that a profitable accord? I'm sure I'm not the only one either.

Really though, if anyone knows any San Francisco Bay Area builders that could benefit from this..... I'm very serious about it. I have tons of experience I can bring to the table as well... and I'd be willing to pay to share in it.

Anyway.....I really appreciate the candid advice here. It holds true with most start up businesses but the primary driver in this must be the love to build & create things.

Reading what you posted here, is making me think you are being very sensible. I wish you good luck.

One last thought. I've been very involved in what it means in a small bussiness when someone quotes a long delivery time.

If you ask a small bussiness owner how things are going, he will imply that it's going great. If you ask his wife, she'll probably tell you the truth. Especially if it is not creating much income.

A long delivery time typically has nothing to do with success or failure It's a way to make people think bussiness is booming, even if it's not. Some things that take a long time to make go slowly. Also if someone is doing this part time, and has other work, that slows things down even more. When one gets into the bussiness, you begin to learn details like this. You can see another frame makers inventory and begin to find out why there is a long lead time. After you have made a frame or two, you can estimate how much time another framemaker needs to make a frame. You can estimate the cost to make a frame.
If someone claims a long delivery time, ask them how many frames are on order. If you don't get a straight answer, then you know the answer. Ask as many frame makers as possible now, how many units are on order, you might learn a lot. Do NOT be impressed by long lead times.

You sound like you are being carefull, that's great !!!!

[M-theory]

"I have seen Richard Sachs express discomfort at people talking about his waiting list" - I would think it would be a benefit. Of course Richard or Sacha can't imply that and need to convey an integrity of craftsmanship ideal. But as long as they get half the money up front... it helps their brand in many ways, drives up their perceived value to be in such high demand. In Sacha's case he just opened another marquee to handle overflow.


The waiting list does deter current buyers but as long you can expand your company... it seems to be mostly positive.

[e-RICHIE]

I have seen Richard Sachs express discomfort at people talking about his waiting list, I'll guess that Sacha White feels somewhat the same. I would think it would be an issue that would cause a certain amount of stress. Go look at Richard Sach's blog (link above) to see what he thinks of your chances. <cut>

I am getting so many link-backs I thought I'd come back and visit atmo. Eric, I am numb to the chat about what I do, how I do it, my wait list, and all related issues. It (the chat) has its own life and will go on thank-you-very-much without the need for me to steer it. As far as my writing goes, recently I have begun migrating some of it over to my site. Some of it has lived on various forum threads, and some of it is new and fresh. Here's that direct link: Atmo bis

A lot of bases are covered in the texts culled in the link. I hope it serves a constructive purpose.

[himespau]

Wait, the Richard Sachs posts here? How cool is that?

[e-RICHIE]

Wait, the Richard Sachs posts here? How cool is that?

Thanks atmo -

Senior Member

Join Date Dec 2003

[unterhausen]

Thanks for posting Richard. I think your recent writing is important reading for aspiring framebuilders

[M-theory]

Yes.... thanks for that Richard. I'll check out your writings & chats at your site....

[MassiveD]

Obviously there are professional ways to start business from scratch sorta along the business school /science approach. But with the craft people I know that are successful they had some idea before they started of where their sales were coming from, vs. want really badly to build X, and live the life of someone who builds X. Maybe you are active in a club, or environmental organization, or old person community. You already have presence, like to talk to people, etc... Much of that comes from having worked on, lived in, the area of interest long enough to know some people, or see some need that really needs filling.

A lot of people do start from the love of building end only, so some of them are going to make it also. Particularly at the outset of a craft, they had to have the drive. The guys from back in the 60s and 70s who restarted all these things we now have as hobbies.

The other thing I notice is that very few people do it the same way. There isn't one secret, there are a bunch of them. What works for one person may be completely different than what works for another.

[triathloner]

M-theory, I wish you the best of luck. Sometimes the best business decision is to decline, sometimes to move forward. I looked a buying a business that seemed so reasonable last year but when I did my business plan it was an eye opener and I declined. But what if M-theory has Sachs type skills and we are intantly telling him he is going to starve if he enters the business? What if we squash all the hopes and dreams of all future frame builders, that would leave us with Tawainese frames to purchase once the great builders have moved on. I would say to anyone interested to test the waters, see if you have the skills and proceed with caution, if you prove that to yourself then start thinking about business plans, seed money, marketing, and etc.

[unterhausen]

I'm not intent on squashing his dreams by any means, but his original posts diminished the "starving artist" aspect of the trade. We have no idea if he has any skills at all at this point. This thread is the perfect embodiment of the "nice web site, a few pictures of a bike in the gallery, and tight pants" road to success that those of us that have been around for a while are very familiar with.

There are many things to learn. You have to be able to fit people, and building frames correctly is not drop-dead easy by any means. Lots of money to spend if you want to build at a profitable pace. And once all that is mastered, you have to become a nearly full-time salesman in order to get anywhere. Takes more than a good web site.

[rafi]

My experience:

I'm new to the game, working on my own for a year under the name Raphael Cycles. Your hourly will be atrocious for a long time, and there will be no mortgage for a while for sure. I spend 40+ hours in the shop a week. This doesn't include client interaction, social media, ordering, emailing, etc. You live it and breath it, and it's hard $ to earn.

Supplies
Rent
Utilities
Insurance

The list goes on.

I sell my frames for very little, relatively speaking, $1250 base price. My margins are super tight. I do better when selling full builds (below retail, above wholesale) to clients. I expect that as the year progresses I will change my rates to reflect the additional experience. My wait list is pretty small, and I wish it was larger, but it takes time.

Did I mention that I also work a part time job?

It's a commitment that needs to be made for a place of knowledge and a place of deep love.

[jimn]

I'm a frame aesthetic obsessive.

Lots of great info here. Just to throw in my 2 cents, if you've ever worked in a bike shop you may come to realize that the bicycle buying public are not like you. Are you willing to make your money making bikes that you don't like aesthetically? Does your business plan include enough leeway to turn down a lot of stuff that you consider dumb (people who want weird geometries, people who are obsessed with a totally different aesthetic that you find repulsive)?

I don't think someone who likes bicycles a lot should work in the bike industry. It's too annoying! But, that's just my personality.

Also, small-business-wise, believe people when they say there are a lot of hidden costs. They're not so much hidden as hard to predict. I have a small business and on a recent product we neglected to realize that shipping was going to be about $50. Not only that, but boxes were going to be about $10 each, because we need a special size. Then we realized that shipping the boxes to us was a few more dollars / box. This is just one example of how your $100 profit margin per product can turn into $30.

There is a certain dignity in just doing something you love as a hobby, or to use a word I prefer, amateur.

[unterhausen]

that's a good point, people want a lot of weird things built. Just as one example of compromises a builder might have to make, a lot of the people that can afford a custom frame want to have a very upright position. Build too many bikes like that and you can develop a reputation for making ugly bikes.

I actually thought one of the OP's strengths was that he had a vision of the kind of bikes he likes. If he could attract a large enough customer base that are impressed by this strength of vision, then there possibly is a future in framebuilding for him.

[sindlero]

Hello

I have been following this thread, as I'm considering ordering a custom frame. As a 62 year old with chronic back issues, a custom frame sounds like a healthy choice, as opposed to a stock frame with many adjustments and tinkering----or is this a fantasy?

I went into a Philadelphia frame building shop this week and got the impression that I was interrupting their production. It seems odd from a consumer point of view that I would drop $2000 for a frameset and wait 6 months for the product and be an interruption.

Not to be sarcastic, but what is the buyer of a custom frame paying for?

Thanks for any feedback.
sindlero

[Cassave]

Hello

I have been following this thread, as I'm considering ordering a custom frame. As a 62 year old with chronic back issues, a custom frame sounds like a healthy choice, as opposed to a stock frame with many adjustments and tinkering----or is this a fantasy?

I went into a Philadelphia frame building shop this week and got the impression that I was interrupting their production. It seems odd from a consumer point of view that I would drop $2000 for a frameset and wait 6 months for the product and be an interruption.

Not to be sarcastic, but what is the buyer of a custom frame paying for?

Thanks for any feedback.
sindlero

First off, I'd find another shop. If the shop you visited has an open street door, then a "drop in" shouldn't be treated like a trespasser.

As for your question. That's a moving target. Back when the state of the art was lugged steel, you'd buy a custom frame for rider fit, or special braze-ons to fit touring gear etc.
You'd have the state of the art, fine tuned to you, even painted your favorite color. I never met anyone that considered a custom frame as wall art.

But the state of the art has moved on. A lugged (or fillet brazed) frame is still nice, but hardly state of the art.
I'd guess for many buyers now, it's more an "art" piece to be seen on. I doubt you'll ever see anyone racing on their new Vanilla.

[squirtdad]

Hello

I have been following this thread, as I'm considering ordering a custom frame. As a 62 year old with chronic back issues, a custom frame sounds like a healthy choice, as opposed to a stock frame with many adjustments and tinkering----or is this a fantasy?

I went into a Philadelphia frame building shop this week and got the impression that I was interrupting their production. It seems odd from a consumer point of view that I would drop $2000 for a frameset and wait 6 months for the product and be an interruption.

Not to be sarcastic, but what is the buyer of a custom frame paying for?

Thanks for any feedback.
sindlero

what you get depends on why you are getting a custom frame. In general you get a custom frame because it makes you happy, but some reasons:

* You have "non standard" body dimensions. really long legs, super long torso, tyranosaurus rex arms. In this case the a custom frame may be the only way to get a good fit.
* You like the idea of little tweaks base on your measurements, even if you are pretty standard. There is simply something about custom.
* you like the aesthetic values of a certain builder...i.e you are buying a pretty bike by your definition
* you like the design feature of a certain builder
* you like and appreciate the quality and hand work that goes into a good custom
* you want somthing different.
* A custom bike is a cheap (compared to a lamborghini) rewar for mid life crisis, retirement, lossing 100 pounds , etc.
* you are buying a hot builders bike as an investment
* you simple want the best
* A good custom is on part with highend productio bikes in cost, but cooler

and the list can go on. A custom might help your back issues, as fit can be critical, but if you are pretty standard a good fitting might also or simply raising your stem.

[Doug Fattic]

Hello

what is the buyer of a custom frame paying for?
sindlero

Okay I'll take the bait and spell out a few differences between a custom and production frame. I've been a builder and painter and have taught framebuilding classes since the 70's.

I should explain that their are a fair number of differences between custom builders in how "custom" they make a bicycle and how much time they spend on artistic details. Lets assume that your builder chooses every option available individually to fit your specific needs. First of all he is going to be a good fitter (or send you to one) so that he is able to refine your present position to be optimum for your kind of riding. He will then transfer your refined saddle height, setback, handlebar drop (how much lower it is than the seat) and extension into the frame design itself. In other words the lengths and angles of the tubes will match your 3 contact points. For example your seat angle with match your saddle setback.

A company making a production frame has to assume that you are a retired NFL lineman now fatter and that you pedal in squares so if they don't put stout tubing under you the frame will break. A custom builder will choose every tube's diameter wall thickness, butt placement and hardness to what he believes is optimum for you. In addition he can lower the bottom Bracket height of the bicycle to your exact crank length and cornering style. Production frames have to assume you will use the longest cranks possible and pedal through corners at speed.

Most likely if you are more of a comfort rider that is no longer as fit and flexible as you were in your youth, then you need to have your handlebars up near the height of your saddle. A custom builder can alter all the variables below the bars (tilt the top tube up a little, extend the head tube more above the top tube, etc.) so your bicycle doesn't look funny with a bunch of stackers under the stem. That way you don't look like the kid that has outgrown his pants with lots of sock showing.

Will you be wanting fenders or racks? Specific braze-ons can take care of all your accessory needs. And then as a topper, you can choose various lug styles and paint options are endless. In addition some builders take extra time filing the joints so they are even more distinctive and attractive.

I would expect $2000 for a custom frame to be on the low end of the spectrum. This is the price point where function rules over artistic details. A custom builder that puts more work in refining the look (and therefore spends several days longer working on your frame) would likely charge over $3000. Some builders just getting into the trade often work for less.

[MassiveD]

I remember reading this article in Institutional Investor in the 80s. The reporter observed that some wall street firms were actually hiring new staff from the ranks of the ugly. Who knew there might be some hidden talent in this overlooked demographic, or that they might be a little more loyal. Seriously.

Obviously nobody is going to say "bad people skills, that's your man!" But at the same time most people aren't good at absolutely everything. And probably dozens of people waste his time (raise the overhead for actual customers) for every one who orders. Anyway, it can be in your interest to determine whether the initial blow off guy is worth a few attempts, and will turn out to be a gem once he notices you are serious, or is just as bad at everything else as he is at drop-ins. At one time it seemed like everyone I ran into at all those sports stores of my youth was that guy, but some of them became friends.

[unterhausen]

I wouldn't expect to be able to drop in to a framebuilder's shop without an appointment, or at least previous discussion that it would be ok. I think some of the busier builders are in a position to pick their customers, which is something most of us aren't used to dealing with. Of course, in Philly a certain amount of hostility is just the way they show they like you -- this is the town that booed Santa Claus, after all.

[sindlero]

Thanks to all who wrote in and offered thier opinions.

sindlero

[DrSpoke]

I think I'm late to this thread. Not sure if they take apprentices but in my recent surfing I've discovered these guys that I think are close to you.

I think I discovered Dinucci on CyclingNews in regard to the NAHBS. I'd not heard of him before but was VERY impressed. Multi award winner at NAHBS too: http://www.dinuccicycles.com/#DINUCCI-CYCLES

And found this I think at the same place - love some of the retro framesets but the modern stuff looks good too: http://ingliscycles.com/index.php

And here is a fun site if some of you haven't discovered it yet (from down under): http://www.cycleexif.com/

In fact, check out the series on the Whippet there - amazing stuff: http://www.cycleexif.com/paul-brodie-the-whippet-1

Here is the last in the series with links to all: http://www.cycleexif.com/paul-brodie-and-the-whippet-7