Giving up booze.......

[DropDeadFred]

I got pretty hammysauced over the weekend, it was a blowout though for work which is coming to a season end, it's time to ride and focus and I'm ok with a beer or 4 after a good ride

[DropDeadFred]

World Health Organisation says no.
http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/p...ruprofiles.pdf

2.1 ALCOHOL AND HEALTH
The harmful use of alcohol is one of the world’s leading health risks. It is a causal factor in more than 60 major types of diseases and injuries and results in approximately 2.5 million deaths each year. If we take into consideration the beneficial impact of low risk alcohol use on morbidity and mortality in some diseases and in some population groups, the total number of deaths attributable to alcohol consumption was estimated to be 2.25 million in 2004 (WHO, 2009a). This accounts for more deaths than caused by HIV/AIDS or tuberculosis. Thus, 4% of all deaths worldwide are attributable to alcohol. The harmful use of alcohol is especially fatal for younger age groups and alcohol is the world’s leading risk factor for death among males aged 15–59.
Approximately 4.5% of the global burden of disease and injury is attributable to alcohol. Alcohol consumption is estimated to cause from 20% to 50% of cirrhosis of the liver, epilepsy, poisonings, road traffic accidents, violence and several types of cancer. It is the third highest risk for disease and disability, after childhood underweight and unsafe sex. Alcohol contributes to traumatic outcomes that kill or disable people at a relatively young age, resulting in the loss of many years of life to death and disability. This section examines the causal links between alcohol and death, disease and injury.

But I'm still going to go grab a beer now.

ps
Where the heck is four beers considered moderate?

Harmful use, not casual or intermittent, it's clearly referring to alcoholism.

[merlinextraligh]

World Health Organisation says no.
http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/p...ruprofiles.pdf

2.1 ALCOHOL AND HEALTH
The harmful use of alcohol is one of the world’s leading health risks. It is a causal factor in more than 60 major types of diseases and injuries and results in approximately 2.5 million deaths each year. If we take into consideration the beneficial impact of low risk alcohol use on morbidity and mortality in some diseases and in some population groups, the total number of deaths attributable to alcohol consumption was estimated to be 2.25 million in 2004 (WHO, 2009a). This accounts for more deaths than caused by HIV/AIDS or tuberculosis. Thus, 4% of all deaths worldwide are attributable to alcohol. The harmful use of alcohol is especially fatal for younger age groups and alcohol is the world’s leading risk factor for death among males aged 15–59.
Approximately 4.5% of the global burden of disease and injury is attributable to alcohol. Alcohol consumption is estimated to cause from 20% to 50% of cirrhosis of the liver, epilepsy, poisonings, road traffic accidents, violence and several types of cancer. It is the third highest risk for disease and disability, after childhood underweight and unsafe sex. Alcohol contributes to traumatic outcomes that kill or disable people at a relatively young age, resulting in the loss of many years of life to death and disability. This section examines the causal links between alcohol and death, disease and injury.

But I'm still going to go grab a beer now.

ps
Where the heck is four beers considered moderate?

The WHO report is juust that a report, not a study. And their conclusions regarding the net effect of alcohol consumption appear to rather skewed, ignoring substantial evidence of the positive effects of moderate alcohol use:



The World Health Organization (WHO) has released its global status report on alcohol and health for 2011. Forum members largely agree with the discussion in the report of the serious health and societal problems associated with the misuse of alcohol, which contributes to accidents, many diseases, and premature deaths.

On the other hand, Forum members were disturbed that the report was limited almost exclusively to abusive drinking, was based primarily on out-dated information, and suggested bias against alcohol.

The report ignored a massive amount of scientific data indicating that in all developed countries, moderate consumers of alcohol are at much lower risk of essentially all of the diseases of ageing: coronary heart disease, ischemic stroke, diabetes, dementia, and osteoporosis. And conspicuously absent from the WHO report is a description of the decrease in total mortality among middle-aged and elderly people associated with moderate alcohol consumption, a finding that has been found consistently throughout the world.

Epidemiologic studies over many decades have shown that while excessive or irresponsible alcohol use has severe adverse health and societal effects, moderate drinking is associated with lower risk of cardiovascular disease and other diseases of ageing. And a very large number of experimental studies, including results from human trials, have described biological mechanisms for the protective effects of both alcohol and the polyphenolic components of wine.

A number of comprehensive meta-analyses are cited by Forum reviewers which they consider to provide much more accurate, up to date, and scientifically balanced views of the current "status" of the health effects of alcohol consumption. Such documents are better sources of data upon which policy decisions should be based.

Source: Boston University Medical Center


http://www.news-medical.net/news/201...nd-health.aspx

[whitemax]

Where did I say others should abstain from it? You can drink yourself stupid and I couldn't care less. In my opinion and experience, however, the stuff is evil.

Yeah, the apple in the Garden of Eden was just a metaphor for alcohol, you reckon?

[merlinextraligh]

Here's the link to the original source material critiquing the WHO report: http://www.bu.edu/alcohol-forum/revi...-10-july-2011/

It comes from the Boston University School of Medicine Institute on Lifestyle and Health.

At their website, there are a ton of studies showing the postive effect of moderate alcohol consumption, and the forum members are people who actually know what the hell they're talking about.

http://www.bu.edu/alcohol-forum/members/

[DropDeadFred]

Here's the link to the original source material critiquing the WHO report: http://www.bu.edu/alcohol-forum/revi...-10-july-2011/

It comes from the Boston University School of Medicine Institute on Lifestyle and Health.

At their website, there are a ton of studies showing the postive effect of moderate alcohol consumption, and the forum members are people who actually know what the hell they're talking about.

http://www.bu.edu/alcohol-forum/members/

I agree with it but it's funny it's from Boston

[bonz50]

alcohol only kills the weak and feeble, its kinda like self imposed eugenics.

*grabs a beer*

[StanSeven]

You've done a good job of wriggling out of the hole you created for yourself by using flimsy semantics. But the point is, your first post was offensive in what was a rather benign and certainly not self-righteous thread to that point.

sthlm.bill simply responded to:

BUT this thread began along the lines of "I feel so much better, ride so much faster, spend so much so less, have a more meaningful life, drinking is evil, etc." - That's the self-rightous part that kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

The self-righteous tone was very evident and seveal people responded to that tone. sthlm.bill doesn't have to wiggle out of anything - the response was justified and the explanation wasn't really needed

[Amesja]

HTFU, live a little, have some fun, don't wet yourself worrying about a simple organic compound.

[Doohickie]

Epidemiologic studies over many decades have shown that while excessive or irresponsible alcohol use has severe adverse health and societal effects, moderate drinking is associated with lower risk of cardiovascular disease and other diseases of ageing. And a very large number of experimental studies, including results from human trials, have described biological mechanisms for the protective effects of both alcohol and the polyphenolic components of wine.

If alcohol hasn't messed up by the time you've hit middle age, you're one of the people who knows how to take of himself.

[Ratzinger]

Jesus should have turned the water into gatorade.

[bonz50]

Jesus should have turned the water into gatorade.

wrong, should turned it into Whiskey, derived from the Gaelic word that means Water of Life.

[MikeyBoyAz]

See the studies in post 60. Whole lot of evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol is in fact good for you.

In fact the effect is so strong, that on a population basis, the positive effect for moderate drinkers out-Weighs the harm from abuse.

The post #60 is so painfully vague: "Lived longer... less likely to die... " What on earth were the controls?? How can we quantify the information? How much of their results were noise and had no actual correlation? And to that... I would say the positive effect can not outweigh the harm from abuse --> which includes death, abuse, car accidents, illness (Cirrhosis) and general uselessness (passed out on the lawn).

I have no problem with anything you just said. All those related studies seem only look at the moderate consumption of alcohol v. abuse of alcohol purely on a health level. What about all the other anguish that comes from the abuse of alcohol; violence, marriage breakdown, economic loss etc. Do these studies take that into account?

I don't think so... and where is the control for the person NOT consuming alcohol?

[whitemax]

Jesus should have turned the water into gatorade.

Wrong, the sugar is evil.

[RT]

'Round these parts, nothing good ever happens after midnight, and the things that do happen and are significant enough to make the police blotter involve alcohol at the very least 95% of the time (and those are only the ones that make the blotter). You don't read about an alcohol-related incident and say to yourself, "Gee, that's peculiar." No, it is the rule, not the exception.

I worked in a bar for several years and can attest to the effects of alcohol on the general public, especially the young ones, since I was once the young adult on the other side of the bar. After watching personalities, families and lives erode to piles of dust, my personal interpretation of moderation is that it is simply part of the addiction, used to justify perpetuation of current behavior. There are those who can enjoy only a beer of a glass of wine after a ride, but with my experience in the industry, I have never seen one. I am sure they exist, but by no means as prevalent as this forum/thread would suggest. Maybe they just didn't come to the bars I worked at, but that would be a wild assumption.

I am not against you if you drink, and I am not about prohibition. I am about personal responsibility, and the Utopian picture the drinkers in this thread paint is not at all representative of what really happens outside the 41, at least here. There is a lot less personal responsibility being exercised and a lot more of drinking entitlement going on.

Some of you cite studies that say moderate alcohol consumption is good for you, yet I doubt you treat it like medicine. Some state alcohol is not good for you, yet you follow the statement with saying you are going to have a beer anyway. None of it makes any sense to me (and yes, at some point both have come up in barroom conversation).

Bottom line, do what feels right for you, but don't be shocked if you wake up one day and wonder what the heck you've been doing for the past twenty years. Time truly flies when you are having fun, and yes, drinking was fun. Even when done responsibly, twenty years of drinking adds up to four years at [a good] college for your kids, if you have any.

That's some math that makes sense only when you are older for some reason.

Sorry if I offend those who still drink. I am sure you are nice people, but we non-drinkers aren't all Bible-thumpers who want to change you. I would wager that if a random sample of ten posters of each ilk were to gather in person at a restaurant, we'd all get along better than we do in here.

[Machka]

sthlm.bill simply responded to:

The self-righteous tone was very evident and seveal people responded to that tone. sthlm.bill doesn't have to wiggle out of anything - the response was justified and the explanation wasn't really needed

Nonsense!

No one was being "self-righteous". There was no "self-righteous tone".

Since when is ... "I feel so much better, ride so much faster, spend so much so less, have a more meaningful life"? ... somehow a bad thing. To me, that's all positive. Just about the whole first page was positive ... and that's wonderful!



I stopped eating peanuts (and peanut butter) quite a few years ago now. I used to eat a lot of peanuts and peanut butter. But after I quit eating peanuts, I felt so much better. I stopped bloating and felt a lot more energetic. I'm also so much more comfortable on the bicycle when I don't eat peanuts, and that positively affects my performance. In general, I'd say I'm happier and more productive without the peanuts. But I bet if I started a thread about that, there'd be about < 10 responses. No one would care.

People talk about easing up on the drinking, or stopping all together, or opting not to drink ... for the same sort of reasons, or with the same sort of results, as me not eating peanuts .... and the drinkers get all insulted.

[grolby]

The post #60 is so painfully vague: "Lived longer... less likely to die... " What on earth were the controls?? How can we quantify the information? How much of their results were noise and had no actual correlation?

I suggest that you find the relevant paper and read it if you want to know the answers to these questions. This information is provided in scientific studies.

[tagaproject6]

Wrong, the sugar is evil.

Crystal light, then?

[Ratzinger]

After watching personalities, families and lives erode to piles of dust, my personal interpretation of moderation is that it is simply part of the addiction, used to justify perpetuation of current behavior. There are those who can enjoy only a beer of a glass of wine after a ride, but with my experience in the industry,

Don't forget that there are many who have a glass of wine or beer on the weekends at home, and not at a partying bar or anywhere associated with "the industry".

I would wager that if a random sample of ten posters of each ilk were to gather in person at a restaurant, we'd all get along better than we do in here.

This is true. The internet is not the easiest place to have a constructive conversation...

[merlinextraligh]

And to that... I would say the positive effect can not outweigh the harm from abuse --> which includes death, abuse, car accidents, illness (Cirrhosis) and general uselessness (passed out on the lawn).

You might say that but the data doesn't. And it's not difficult to imagine why there is a growing amount of data supporting the moderate consumption of alcohol.

Take a universe of alcohol users, 80% of that universe drinks responsibly. 10-15% drinks more than they should but not to the point of causing accidents etc. And 5% have a real problem and cause real problems.

So the 80% gets a substantial positive benefit in reducing major diseases such as Cardiovascular disease which kills 400,000 people in the U.S. each year.

The 5% cause alcohol related car accidents which kill about 10,000 people a year, and a likely similar number die from cirrhosis.

The magnitude of the positive effect would easily trump the admittedly bad negatives, and that's what the data is showing more and more.


But to get back to my point, that doesn't even have to be true for my point to be true.

My only point is that alcohol, responsibly used does have positive benefits. Therefore it is not per se "evil."

[RT]

Don't forget that there are many who have a glass of wine or beer on the weekends at home, and not at a partying bar or anywhere associated with "the industry".

Agreed, and apologies to all the home drinkers. What you just brought to light though is what a lot of people choose to do - drink at home. It is cheaper and easier to drink more because you don't have to go anywhere unless you run out, then it is truly more dangerous. Being in the bar industry certainly put the issue out there in public, but the point of my post was that far fewer good things happen than bad when it comes to moderating with alcohol. What Machka said was right on the nose: "Since when is ... "I feel so much better, ride so much faster, spend so much so less, have a more meaningful life"? ... somehow a bad thing. To me, that's all positive."

If quitting drinking is a bad thing, then I would have to say that you are somewhat dependent on it, either physically or socially. It is very difficult to separate the two (but not impossible).

[Ratzinger]

No doubt, alcohol abuse is a horrible thing and can ruin a person's health and their life.

But I do resent the implication that when I make a special dinner for friends and buy a bottle of wine, that I'm doing something evil (not talking about you RTdub).

It's not alcohol that is good or bad in general, but alcohol is a particular person's life, just like TV, just like religion, just like CYCLING!

[avance]

Pancreatitis is an excellent reason to stop drinking.

[Amesja]

If alcohol hasn't messed up by the time you've hit middle age, you're one of the people who knows how to take of himself.

And if you are one of the people who just never learned how to take care of yourself...gods help you. You don't need alcohol to F up your life. Without it you'll find something else to do it.

[rck]

I got drunk once. Christmas eve 1969 at Ft. Bragg I drank a pint of whiskey (old Grandad's) in 30 minutes. My own personal Day of Infamy! My friends took pictures and if I still had them I'd scan them in and post them. Then everyone would quit drinking. Needless to say, I don't drink to this day, yet I'm hardly self righteous about it. My friends like it because when we go out to dinner it means they can have a drink and not drive and I like it because as I drive they buy. It all works out.