Red Lights & Stop Signs

[lhbernhardt]

When I first started randonneuring back in the late 70s (riding with the four guys who went on to become the first Canadians to ride PBP), we agreed to a strict policy: We were out on personal rides, and were expected to adhere to all of the standard rules of the road. This meant stopping at red lights and stop signs (well, pretending to stop at stop signs anyway, so at least slowing down enough that we could stop IMMEDIATELY if unseen traffic suddenly appeared). And if the red light we encountered at 2 in the morning didn't turn green, it was permissible to assume that it was not functioning for bicycles, so it was OK to run it if there was no other traffic. But at least we had stopped for it.

So it really annoys me when I see guys on brevets ignoring stop signs and running red lights. I'm glad they hand out time penalties at PBP for such infractions, and it would be nice to see the same penalties here. What I find particularly annoying is when you drop somebody, but they're able to catch back on because they have run the last few red lights and stop signs. I guess I'm just too competitive and antisocial. If they are able to recover and catch up by their own effort, that's different, and it's commendable. But even if the group splits up, and those in back get caught by a red light, never to see the front group again, well, that's just the way it is.

Luis

[Machka]

Not very many of our routes go through red lights ... or stop signs for that matter.


And if there happens to be the occasional red light or stop sign, they usually occur somewhere around a control where we'll be stopping for lunch or dinner anyway.

[Steamer]

When I first started randonneuring back in the late 70s (riding with the four guys who went on to become the first Canadians to ride PBP), we agreed to a strict policy: We were out on personal rides, and were expected to adhere to all of the standard rules of the road. This meant stopping at red lights and stop signs (well, pretending to stop at stop signs anyway, so at least slowing down enough that we could stop IMMEDIATELY if unseen traffic suddenly appeared). And if the red light we encountered at 2 in the morning didn't turn green, it was permissible to assume that it was not functioning for bicycles, so it was OK to run it if there was no other traffic. But at least we had stopped for it.

So it really annoys me when I see guys on brevets ignoring stop signs and running red lights. I'm glad they hand out time penalties at PBP for such infractions, and it would be nice to see the same penalties here. What I find particularly annoying is when you drop somebody, but they're able to catch back on because they have run the last few red lights and stop signs. I guess I'm just too competitive and antisocial. If they are able to recover and catch up by their own effort, that's different, and it's commendable. But even if the group splits up, and those in back get caught by a red light, never to see the front group again, well, that's just the way it is.

Luis

I too am annoyed when folks run red lights. And when folks do it, I give them a ration. Even if they are my best buds.

I have to admit though, you sound a little conflicted about something - you say you are all on your own personal rides, but you get upset when someone catches up to your group by something other than their own strength. Why do you care where that guy is riding - with your group or dropped off the back? You are on your own personal rides, no? I understand why you'd be annoyed by the guy acting badly with respect to traffic laws, etc., but why be annoyed that he's now riding with your group again? Perhaps you need to go do some racing at an actual race.

[Machka]

When I first started randonneuring ...

... What I find particularly annoying is when you drop somebody, but they're able to catch back on because they have run the last few red lights and stop signs. I guess I'm just too competitive and antisocial. If they are able to recover and catch up by their own effort, that's different, and it's commendable. But even if the group splits up, and those in back get caught by a red light, never to see the front group again, well, that's just the way it is.

I have to admit though, you sound a little conflicted about something - you say you are all on your own personal rides, but you get upset when someone catches up to your group by something other than their own strength. Why do you care where that guy is riding - with your group or dropped off the back? You are on your own personal rides, no? I understand why you'd be annoyed by the guy acting badly with respect to traffic laws, etc., but why be annoyed that he's now riding with your group again? Perhaps you need to go do some racing at an actual race.

+1 Steamer

Randonneuring is not racing. It is not meant to be that competitive ... it is meant to be cooperative. Personal rides are also not races.

With regard to lights, if I am riding with someone else, and he/she gets caught by a light (very rare occurance), I slow up and wait for that person. It's just common decency and courtesy on a non-racing ride like a randonnee.


Luis ... it sounds like you need to join the local racing club. Their rides might be more your style. You can be competitive and antisocial there.

[The Octopus]

I don't think there's much of a debate when it comes to respecting the rules of the road while riding a bike, whether one is randonneuring or doing something else.

In my experience, randonneurs tend to be respectful of the laws and other road users, probably moreso than other segments of the cycling community I've been a part of over the years.

All that said, you'll find very few cyclists who adhere scrupulously to the traffic laws in all circumstances at all times. Makes 'em pretty similar to motorized vehicle drivers, in my experience.

Also, it's worth pointing out that, since this is an international forum, the rules are quite different in differnet places. This is especially true within the United States. Rolling stops of stop signs are expressly permitted for cyclists in some places (treating stop signs as yield signs, in effect). Some states permit riding 2-up. Others don't. Whether one must or can or should use a shoulder or bike path or travel lane depends on where you are.

I understand Luis's point; he comes from a racing background and among bicycle racers -- at least the ones I've ridden with -- it's very poor form to breach the traffic laws to reattach to a group that you've been dropped out of. It's similarly unsportsmanlike to cause a chohesive group to separate because of a traffic signal; even in the most aggressive rides and in races on a non-controlled course, etiquette demands that the ride be neutralized until everyone in a group is safely through the signal. After that, it's on again.

I'll pleady guilty to giving dropped riders nasty looks when I know the only reason they've reattached is because they flouted the traffic laws. It's not about racing or being competitive. It's about not being dangerous and giving the rest of us a bad name. Whether one's on a randonnee or some other ride, I don't think this dynamic is out of the ordinary.

[mander]

i confess to being sympathetic to luis. A randonee isn't a race, but a rider who has run reds to keep up with a group doesn't really belong in that group. it's in the same scuzzy ballpark as epo, or taking a train. Anyways this kind of thing only really happens early on in a brevet when you are still getting through the suburban sprawl.


i have gotten to the point where i will never run a red on my bike (barring tree falling in the forest situations). It's just good politics imo to wait your turn, even on a stupid red where no one is coming.

[lhbernhardt]

[B]
Luis ... it sounds like you need to join the local racing club. Their rides might be more your style. You can be competitive and antisocial there.

I'm still a member of the Burnaby Velodrome Club, since I like to ride the track during the winter. But after 35 years, racing bikes gets pretty old. There's a lot of psychological stress at the start of each race, and the training is much, MUCH harder than training for randonnees (which is basically to just ride, lots). But a lot of the attitudes regarding what's good etiquette does come from racing. But I think the antisocial part is just me. Although racing does tend to reinforce it. You can't be a good racer without a certain amount of "sang-froid" (cold-bloodedness). Although my best races were when my psychological state was less antisocial. There's a certain psycho "zone" you need to go to in order to optimize your physical performance. Go figure.

Anyway, I'm from the school that says that those who get dropped are merely left to die... ;-)

Luis

[Machka]

i confess to being sympathetic to luis. A randonee isn't a race, but a rider who has run reds to keep up with a group doesn't really belong in that group.

True, but the group shouldn't put a rider into the situation where he/she is tempted to run a red.

In other words, if a group is riding togther, and they go through lights, and a rider or two get caught at the red ... the group should have the courtesy and decency to slow up, take a little break, and wait for the other riders. Slowing up for a moment until the group can regroup isn't the end of the world, and as I've mentioned earlier ... on the vast majority of the randonnees I've done, you'd be doing it maybe once on a 200K, and most likely in a town where you're trying to find the control or somewhere to have lunch. So you're slowing up and looking around anyway.


Remember, randonneuring is all about cooperation and camaraderie, not competition.

[songfta]

This is especially true within the United States. Rolling stops of stop signs are expressly permitted for cyclists in some places (treating stop signs as yield signs, in effect).

This is only the case in one state: Idaho. Attempts have been made in other states and municipalities to adopt the so-called "Idaho stop" law, but none have made it onto the books.

As far as two-abreast riding is concerned, it varies from state to state and county to county. In many rural areas, two-abreast riding is allowed as long as it doesn't impede the flow of traffic. That said, this kind of regulation is only as good as the willingness for road users to follow it: if a two-up group doesn't fall to single file while riding 20 mph on a 45 mph road, they are in violation of the law with precious few exceptions (e.g. where there are blind break-overs or blind corners, or the road becomes too narrow to allow safe passage).

As a cyclist who rides competitively (racing), does a few rando rides, leads club rides and commutes in a major urban area, I'm very aware of the role that cyclists play in the grand scheme of road stewardship. And when too many riders ignore the laws, it hurts all of us. Sure, we can point the finger at motorists who similarly flaunt the laws, but the laws, in over 95 percent of cases (in the U.S.), cover all road users equally, cyclists included. If we want respect from fellow road users, or if we want to be advocates for special rules and regulations regarding cyclists' use of roads, it must be earned.

Just my $0.02.

[vik]

What I find particularly annoying is when you drop somebody, but they're able to catch back on because they have run the last few red lights and stop signs.

I never try and drop people on a brevet. If it's someone I've been riding with for a while I'll slow down to let them catch up more easily. I'm stoked when a group can stay together for a long time and I'm happy when people who disappeared off the back rejoin the group. It's a club event so seeing club members on the ride and riding with them is a good thing for me.

When someone who I haven't seen for a while catches up to me I am not worrying about how they handled traffic signals/stop signs - partially because I don't care and partially because I have no way of knowing what happened so at best I'd be guessing.

What's the point of getting stressed out about something you can't fully understand [given your perspective on the bike up the road] and which really has no meaning/impact on you? There is no medal for first place and if they end up with the same time as you that doesn't take anything away from your ride. In fact having them along may make your ride a tad easier if you are taking turns pulling the group along.

Ultimately it sounds like all that's happening is you are building up a whole lot of pointless negativity which is taking away from what should be a pleasurable experience - riding your bike with your fellow club members. You can't be annoyed and having a marvelous time on your bike simultaneously - they are mutually exclusive emotions.

[Doohickie]

When I first started randonneuring back in the late 70s (riding with the four guys who went on to become the first Canadians to ride PBP), we agreed to a strict policy: We were out on personal rides, and were expected to adhere to all of the standard rules of the road. This meant stopping at red lights and stop signs (well, pretending to stop at stop signs anyway, so at least slowing down enough that we could stop IMMEDIATELY if unseen traffic suddenly appeared). And if the red light we encountered at 2 in the morning didn't turn green, it was permissible to assume that it was not functioning for bicycles, so it was OK to run it if there was no other traffic. But at least we had stopped for it.

So it really annoys me when I see guys on brevets ignoring stop signs and running red lights. I'm glad they hand out time penalties at PBP for such infractions, and it would be nice to see the same penalties here. What I find particularly annoying is when you drop somebody, but they're able to catch back on because they have run the last few red lights and stop signs. I guess I'm just too competitive and antisocial. If they are able to recover and catch up by their own effort, that's different, and it's commendable. But even if the group splits up, and those in back get caught by a red light, never to see the front group again, well, that's just the way it is.

Luis

I read this as, "I bend the rules but I don't like people who bend the rules differently than I do."

Just sayin'.

[The Octopus]

In other words, if a group is riding togther, and they go through lights, and a rider or two get caught at the red ... the group should have the courtesy and decency to slow up, take a little break, and wait for the other riders.

Agreed, although what constitutes "riding together" is a subject that you'll see differences of opinion on.

Where I think Luis is coming from -- and I've seen this on many randonnees -- is you'll have a big group "riding together," typically early on in a brevet, but there's only a handful of people doing work at the front. When you get to a traffic signal (or to a control, for that matter, or what if someone has a flat tire?), what's the obligation of riders in that group to wait for each other? If someone I don't know has been riding my wheel, mile after mile, doing no work at the front and not participating in some other way in the group dynamic -- helping with navigation, being a good conversationalist, having a killer set of lights at night -- then I don't consider myself to be "riding together" with that person. Of course, I'd never leave riders who are having a problem, but we're not talking about that here. That big mass of riders that hangs out at the back on larger randonnees.... I don't feel particularly obligated to wait for them at lights or for flats or at controls or at the crest of hills. In my experience, these large groups are made up of many smaller groups of people who truly are "riding together." Friends and spouses and others who are doing the event, or probably a lot of the event, as a unit. The first climb of any significance or control tends to chop that big mass into these more well-defined and compatably paced groups.

[skiffrun]

I read this as, "I bend the rules but I don't like people who bend the rules differently than I do."

... .

+ 1


I'm always perplexed by the "I demand that my favorite rule/guideline/protocol/etiquette be enforced on that other person. But don't anyone dare mention that other rule/guideline/protocol/etiquette to me that I don't like and that I violate all the time."

[unterhausen]

I get dropped all the time because I stop for stop signs and lights. This actually is a change in my behavior from only a few years ago. I kinda wish people would follow my rules, which are "no witnesses, no stop," (logical inference is if there are witnesses you stop) but I'm not going to get too upset if they don't. I can't think of any riders that I've met randonneuring that I don't enjoy riding with. Some of them I don't ride too close to, but that's a different matter.

[surreycrv]

What I find particularly annoying is when you drop somebody, but they're able to catch back on because they have run the last few red lights and stop signs.

Luis

Who is to say they ran any lights or stops at all? Were you there to view it? Maybe they got all the greens, while you started to hit all the reds? I suppose the ego boost of dropping a rider can make you feel like a superhuman, but there is no prize for first in randonees, or is that where you want the sport to go, like the yahoos that trashed PBP in 07?

There is a place for that, and there is a section of this web site for that too. Not to say its one huge group hug on a 400km ride, but its not the competitive, take out the other rider before he crosses the line, adversarial arena. What pisses me off the most is the rider who gets to the control with the pack (and all get the same time) then pushes to the front of the queue instead of showing courtesy. Big difference between being efficient and being a ******bag.

[rdtompki]

I stop unconditionally for stoplights and regulate our (tandem) speed at stop signs according to the sight lines and other conditions. Country road, long sight lines I slow down, but would not stop. Housing neighborhood, I slow down a great deal. Also depends on whether it's a 4-way stop intersection.