Ah, I found it: http://www.cyclorama.net/blog/cycling-news/20s-plenty/
Last edited by hagen2456; 04-28-12 at 06:10 PM.
My comments are in the context of sending 10-13 year old children out to commute on 50, 55, and 65MPH roads where even skilled cyclists have been killed. Now seriously do you believe that children of that age should be on our US roads with traffic moving by at those speeds, and that those children could for instance negotiate a vehicular left turn in moderate to heavy traffic?
The Danish claims about the inability of children to estimate the speed and distance of vehicles for traffic purposes are not made, according to the abstract, from actual measurement of this ability, but are calculated from some measure of visual acuity. Again, pardon my skepticism about such claims.
As you've now been informed, again, it is not a matter of abstract reasoning. It's based on experience, and backed up by psycological research.The Danish claims about the inability of children to estimate the speed and distance of vehicles for traffic purposes are not made, according to the abstract, from actual measurement of this ability, but are calculated from some measure of visual acuity. Again, pardon my skepticism about such claims.
No mention of age, but the other rumored requirements of classes and permits I'd heard of proved true. Not to besmirch our fine friends in Christendom, but merely to point up cultural differences in protecting the wee ones.
[QUOTE=hagen2456;14157557]Really, you do like everything to be completely black/white, right? But I've several times informed you that lots of cycling in Denmark (and to a lesser degree, Holland) takes place where no bike facilites are present. In particular outside of the larger cities. Whether that is in the form of hard-core VC or not is irrelevant to the point(s).
As you've now been informed, again, it is not a matter of abstract reasoning. It's based on experience, and backed up by psycological research.
You are dodging the issues again. In a discussion of the ability of American trained child cyclists to obey the American rules of the road, you claim that the Danes have evidence disproving my test results. When I suggest that the Danes don't really have evidence about that type of cycling, you reply that whether or not the Danes use vehicular cycling is irrelevant. When you claim that Danish children (under 12 yrs wasn't it?) have been demonstrated to be unable to usefully determine the speed and distance of motor traffic, you offer experience of some kind and a supposed standard that was based on calculations performed on the measured results of visual acuity, without actual testing of the real issue.
10 certainly seems like a sound and conservative estimate from the National Traffic Highway Safety Administration to parents about child development and when its appropriate to let loose the kids to go play in traffic on their bicycles.
I bet they even did some studies.
of course, parents have considerable leeway. I think some safe cycling classes could only help. The League of American Bicyclists has a couple of courses geared to parents and their kids riding in traffic safely.
I'm off for a ride now, but i will look into the recommendations from the only nationally recognized bicycle education program, and get back with their recommendations later.
Last edited by Bekologist; 04-29-12 at 01:45 PM.
John has conveniently chosen to ignore my comments about sending 10-13 year old children onto highspeed multilane streets with moderate to high traffic to make vehicular left turns....
Do any of the rest of you think that is a good idea?
See post 31, above. Do any of you believe that a child of that age has the proper judgement to figure out when and where to start a turn on a high speed road and to judge if the motorists are slowing down for them?
And if children have such judgement, why don't we issue them drivers licenses?
Last edited by hagen2456; 04-29-12 at 02:54 PM.
My #2 nephew, 17-11/12 (lol), is VERY aware on the street -- partly because of riding with me, partly because of some close calls on his own, and partly because he wants his DL and a car SOOOOOO BAAAAADLY! My daughter, 14, can handle the streets... when she's with me. And she knows that.
When Genec asserted skepticism about the ability of 13 year old cyclists to negotiate lane changes, I asked him whether he thought that the cyclist was unable to see that a motorist had slowed for him, or whether he thought that motorists would not respond to properly-behaved cyclists just because they were young. Genec has not answered my questions.
Now Genec tries to put the issue in different terms. He asks the group if any of you believe that a child of that age has the ability to "judge if motorists are slowing down for them?" That's a loaded false question. The issue is not whether a motorist is in the process of slowing down. The issue is whether the motorist has already slowed down to make room for the cyclist, which is an entirely different issue.
was that instruction on changing lanes to stay out of the way of faster traffic if not going the speed of traffic and to ride the lane lines so traffic can pass on both sides like in the book about traffic cycling by john forester?
I've seen some might dubious methodology in Effective Cycling about how not to get in the way of traffic ("properly behaved cyclists"?)that would likely endanger kids to a fair degree.
instructing kids to be stay out of the way of faster traffic and to ride the lane lines is likely a poor way to teach kids how to negotiate with traffic, to be perfectly honest.
I think the NHTSA has sound and conservative metrics on kids and road use. They are making general statements about kids under 10 bicycling in traffic.
maybe traffic dynamics has changed in the last 20-30 years as well. I know when i was riding in the 1970's it was a different world out on the roads. There was a higher degree of attentive driving (no electronic hand held distractions) and lots more respect for kids on bikes.
I remember riding state highways in Florida as a wee lad, barefoot in the rain... never thought twice about it. I think it might be a different world for kids interacting with traffic nowadays.
Last edited by Bekologist; 04-30-12 at 10:14 AM.
At vehicle speeds faster than 20 mph, primary school age children (6-11 years) may not be able to tell that a car is approaching.
As a 14 year old, I think around 13 is a more appropriate age to ride on the street, at least for an average kid. After being hit while riding down the sidewalk, on the wrong side of the road, it was a wake up call. Now, I am very careful, and have avoided many close calls since I started riding in the street. Just a couple weeks ago, a car, after blowing the horn, veered into the bike lane, (one of few in the city), and ran my friend and I into the curb. I can't really see my 12 year old sister knowing how to react in a situation like that.
It is obvious that the conditions faced by bicyclists on our cities' roadways has changed a lot in 50 years. By age 10 I was riding my bike all around a city of 150,000+ which didn't involve getting on any multi-lane facility or speed limits faster than 35 mph. By now we have eliminated the grid pattern, widened streets and turning radii, forced most of the traffic onto thoroughfares/arterials, and increased speed limits. I can see why people are now concerned with even letting a 13 year old travel throughout a city on a bike.