in phase or out of phase once again

[riding_blind]

Yes I know not another IP or OOP Debate but I just don't get it. First a little background information.

Last fall my wife and I went 90 degrees OOP and seemed to find that it made us more productive. At the time the ride felt smoother and we picked up our average speeds slightly. We stayed 90 degrees OOP until we got new peddals last weekend. We switched to Speedplay Zeros and since we both start with 1 foot down she wanted to ride IP until we both got used to them. Unfortunately something seemed to come up every day this week and we weren't able to get a ride in until yesterday morning. We got a later start then we would have prefered and it was pretty warm by the time we got home. We both agreed it was not one of our best rides, we felt tarrible, and that it was because we were in phase. Then we looked at our garmin stats. Same with today. It rained this morning so we didn't get out until this afternoon but our average speed for that out and back was again higher than usual.

Finally riding in phase both of our heart rates are higher. We seem to be able to spin easier but when looking at the stats afterwards she averaged 10 BPM higher and I was about 7 BPM higher. Her heart rate is slower than mine both when resting and during erobic activity.

So I don't get it. Logic tells me that when riding out of phase that the constant power to the rear wheel would make us more efficient. Could it be that the combined power serge of 2 legs at once is actually more efficient then the slow steady push of a leg constantly in it's power stroke and 3 legs without draging through their deadzones? I make a practice of spinning not mashing and she is getting better at but no matter how good you are at spinning your dead leg is still going to provide some obstruction.

[waynesulak]

I would equate a higher heart rate with an ability to push yourself more mentally and therefore a faster time, I would not say it makes you more efficient. In other words I would not say a higher percentage of your power is moving you forward but rather that you are putting out more power. In or out of phase is a personal style choice so whichever works for you is better. Maybe changing periodically will serve as a sufficient change in your training routine to yield some benefit.

For us in phase allows us to feel the bike spring forward on the power stoke and that surge encourages us in turn to go harder. A nice feedback loop for us but many dislike the surging effect and feel it is inefficient. Have fun do what works for you.

[riding_blind]

just to add to the mistery. Today we rode our normal week day loop. My heart rate was right where it normally is on this ride. Our average speed was still almost 1 mph higher. It bothers me. What seems more efficient in my mind isn't working out that way. Yes I admit that this is a limited sample.

[wheelspeed]

You got Speedplay Zeros and your average jumped up despite changing to an unfamiliar pedal method? I'm gonna get me some of those!!! ;-)

[Dean V]

Ride it for a while IP then go back to OOP and then compare the data again.
We never noticed any speed difference between the two and now ride IP just because we prefer the feel of the bike with IP.

[Chris_W]

Reading about the Hawthorne Effect on Wikipedia might show you the importance of going back to OOP, and then IP again (thereby making your experiment into an improved ABAB design instead of the current simple AB metod). Here's Wikipedia's intro to the Hawthorne Effect:

"The Hawthorne effect is a form of reactivity whereby subjects improve or modify an aspect of their behavior being experimentally measured simply in response to the fact that they know they are being studied, not in response to any particular experimental manipulation."

[waynesulak]

Reading about the Hawthorne Effect on Wikipedia might show you the importance of going back to OOP, and then IP again (therebz making your experiment into an improved ABAB design instead of the current simple AB metod). Here's Wikipedia's intro to the Hawthorne Effect:

"The Hawthorne effect is a form of reactivity whereby subjects improve or modify an aspect of their behavior being experimentally measured simply in response to the fact that they know they are being studied, not in response to any particular experimental manipulation."

Very good point. This is one reason double blind tests are so important.

[Carbonfiberboy]

I have heard, and see no reason to doubt it, that if both your pedal strokes are efficient you won't be able to tell if you are IP or OOP while seated. We like IP because we can feel each other's stroke compared to our own and help each other smooth it out. We also like being able to stand, rock the bike, shift while standing by "stuttering" our stroke, etc.

If riding IP encourages you both to put out more power, that's probably a good thing, as long as you both can also modulate it when needed. It could be the effect of being able to feel each other and thus coordinate your outputs when the road tilts up slightly, etc. One person can't accelerate a tandem unless they are very unusual.

[Tom Spohn]

On our first tandem, a Peugeot, the bike was a bit flexy. We found OOP smoothed out the side to side flex and made riding more enjoyable. It also increased the need to communicate shifting as the stoker can't feel what is going on in the drive train as well. On our two Cannondales they are stiff enough that IP is preferd. It makes starting, stopping, shifting easier as well as short bursts of standing to crest a small hill.

[riding_blind]

Reading about the Hawthorne Effect on Wikipedia might show you the importance of going back to OOP, and then IP again (therebz making your experiment into an improved ABAB design instead of the current simple AB metod). Here's Wikipedia's intro to the Hawthorne Effect:

"The Hawthorne effect is a form of reactivity whereby subjects improve or modify an aspect of their behavior being experimentally measured simply in response to the fact that they know they are being studied, not in response to any particular experimental manipulation."

That is something I took into account when we switched to OOP but not so much this time. As I mentioned our first ride back in phase there wasn't much of a thought to the metrics until afterward and the main reason for going back IP was to get used to the new peddals.

[riding_blind]

On our first tandem, a Peugeot, the bike was a bit flexy. We found OOP smoothed out the side to side flex and made riding more enjoyable. It also increased the need to communicate shifting as the stoker can't feel what is going on in the drive train as well. On our two Cannondales they are stiff enough that IP is preferd. It makes starting, stopping, shifting easier as well as short bursts of standing to crest a small hill.

We don't have as much of a problem there anyway. IP verses OOp hasn't changed communication much at all. My wife the, the captain, calls out the terain and I shift. She usually knows when I will shift so I only ever have to call out chain rings. We have found it more efficient for me just to shift the cogs as long as our cadance stays in the comfort zone she is good.

[Punkodelamuncho]

I recently bought a Cannondale Road Tandem 2 and the dealer installed it slightly out of phase such that If I am at 6 pm my stoker is at 5 pm. When I asked to make it exactly IP I was told that we do not want that. It would cause more wear and tear and make the ride rougher. So, when people on this forum say they are riding IP are they typically exactly IP? Does this dealer not know what they are talking about?

[waynesulak]

I recently bought a Cannondale Road Tandem 2 and the dealer installed it slightly out of phase such that If I am at 6 pm my stoker is at 5 pm. When I asked to make it exactly IP I was told that we do not want that. It would cause more wear and tear and make the ride rougher. So, when people on this forum say they are riding IP are they typically exactly IP? Does this dealer not know what they are talking about?

Most people are in phase or very close to it. Modern drive trains can handle in phase and your Cannondale should be stiff enough to handle it as well. I suggest you try different setups to find what you like.

[TandemGeek]

So, when people on this forum say they are riding IP are they typically exactly IP?

For us, yes... The cranks are 100% aligned.

I would also consider most cranks "In Phase" even if the captain's cranks are leading or trailing by a set of chain links to bias the pedal loading that the stoker experiences. Some stokers prefer to have heavy pedal feedback and will have their cranks leading the captains. In some other cases, stokers prefer to have very little pedal feedback (i.e., do better soft pedalling) and have their cranks trailing the captains. Once you go beyond one set of teeth, you're no longer "In Phase" in my book. But, you're also not really "Out of Phase" either. To me, "Out of Phase" is having the cranks set with 90 degrees of off-set. Anything in between these two types of phasing is simply incidental mis-alignment.

Does this dealer not know what they are talking about?

That depends.

Years ago -- like before the mid- to late-90s -- riding "out-of-phase" would increase the reliability / durability of tandem drive train components, such that even folks like Bill & Jan McCready of Santana Cycles would ride their tandems out of phase. However, as the quality and durability of bicycle components increased -- much of which we can attribute to mountain bike technology -- the "need" for OOP diminished. I would say that by the mid-90's component durability was no longer a compelling issue, noting well before then even Bill & Jan had converted to riding in-phase. So, perhaps your dealer is still clinging to that notion? If so, then he might want to let go and get with the program.

If was using the old school "story" about increasing component durabilty by reducing "peak" loading that comes with riding 100% in-phase to cover-up his intentional biasing of the pedal loading, then that's a horse of a different color. However, unless your stoker is a strong, seasoned cyclist I'm not sure why he'd have the stoker pedals leading the captain. That's just a bit unusual. It's more common to see tandems set-up 100% in-phase or, if a savvy dealer suspects the stoker is a significantly less experienced or weaker cyclist than the captain, they may bias the phasing to put the captain's cranks leading the stokers as a way of easing the stoker into cycling.

[CaptainHaddock]

I recently bought a Cannondale Road Tandem 2 and the dealer installed it slightly out of phase such that If I am at 6 pm my stoker is at 5 pm. When I asked to make it exactly IP I was told that we do not want that. It would cause more wear and tear and make the ride rougher. So, when people on this forum say they are riding IP are they typically exactly IP? Does this dealer not know what they are talking about?

I'm not going to comment on the knowledge base of the dealer, but I have a '12 RT2, and we're 100% in sync, and we ride a fair amount of xc trails, I would not say that being in sync has made that riding 'rougher' than being out of sync.

[reburns]

I would,think a difference of wind speed/direction, tire pressure, drivetrain lube/cleanliness, or a few other variables on a given day could easily mask the effect of pedal phase you're trying to measure.

[bobthib]

I find OOP much better when there is a large power difference between Captain and Stoker. It gives the weaker rider a chance to feel their power stroke. The little guy in my avatar is 9 now and since I went OOP I can really feel him contribute.

[riding_blind]

I would,think a difference of wind speed/direction, tire pressure, drivetrain lube/cleanliness, or a few other variables on a given day could easily mask the effect of pedal phase you're trying to measure.

It's interesting that you mention this. I installed new tires 1 week before going back in phase. During that week we rode a little over 100 miles. Different brand and width. The change in speed going back to in phase has been far greater than what we got from switching tires.

[twocicle]

Hypothicus Postulatis:

It isn't surprising that your heart rates initially went up, then returned to normal rates after a period of riding IP. It's called adaption.

As far as deteriming your speed difference and relation to phase, that would likely require a power meter to see what you two are developing in each setup.

There is this thing called stored energy, be it the tandem frame and components or your IP ability to snap spin through your deadzones in unison. This, rather than losing the IP benefits when OOP.

---

This cherry is an oldie but goodie:

message boards are a place where you'll find a circle of people, standing around, beating a patch of grass, where a year ago, there was a dead horse.

[BikeForums.net]

If you are feeling the others pedal stroke, does that mean you get the power rather than the bike?

[tandemchick]

You got Speedplay Zeros and your average jumped up despite changing to an unfamiliar pedal method? I'm gonna get me some of those!!! ;-)

*snorfle* OP's wife here. We had to break those suckers in like crazy before we could even remotely ride on them. But once they were broken in? They're pretty freakin' good.

[twocicle]

*snorfle* OP's wife here. We had to break those suckers in like crazy before we could even remotely ride on them. But once they were broken in? They're pretty freakin' good.

We have been using Zeros on all our road bikes for the last 10 years. Other than install, adjusting the cleat set-screws to in/out requirements, spraying both the pedal "bowties" and cleat "C-ring" with some form of Teflon lube (ie: Finishline), the rest is user familiarity.

What did you find necessary to break in?

[riding_blind]

We have been using Zeros on all our road bikes for the last 10 years. Other than install, adjusting the cleat set-screws to in/out requirements, spraying both the pedal "bowties" and cleat "C-ring" with some form of Teflon lube (ie: Finishline), the rest is user familiarity.

What did you find necessary to break in?

I think a lot of it was user adjustment. We had been using frogs so we weren't used to the spring retention. The first several times the stiff springs or our lack of familiarity made them dificult to clip in. We lubed them well, clipped in and out with each about 50 times, and the rest is history. Now that I have ridden with them I don't think I would trade them for anything.

[bobthib]

If you are feeling the others pedal stroke, does that mean you get the power rather than the bike?

Is this ? for me? Anyway, my answer is that in IP, esp with my grandson, I could never feel him pedaling, and I doubt if he ever felt any resistance, unless i failed to apply any power at all.

In OOP, I can tell immediately when he wants to pour it on. At first, he is helping me finish my stroke, but once I get the message, I can respond if I want. Sometimes I just let him do a little extra work.

[zonatandem]

We are long time OOPers.
Started oput IP in 1975 on our then brand new Follis tandem.
In 1977 we got a custom built Assenmacher and decided to try OOP. 90 degrees with pilot's right foot leading.
Loved it!
Now on our 5th tandem we still are still avid OOPers.
We have never minded being in the minority . . .
Give OOP a try for a couple months. If you don't like it, then switch back to IP.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem