Hi everybody,

I was considering building a serious tourer. I had a bargain on a wonderful frame, and already started to order pieces... When I realized my dream bike would cost me 1900€ (including everything, racks, panniers, accessories, everything top notch).

But more importantly, I realized that I had absolutely no need for such a wonder bike, and that it was not necessarily a bad thing: I had already sold all my bikes, including a recumbent and some other pretty stuff... Except for my old Marin steel MTB, that cost me under 100$ "used" (counter registered 300 miles on it). And that I ride this bike every day, for everything, and absolutely love it despite the crappy components.

I did week end tours with it (camping) and it did the trick, but would have done better with quality racks - the rear 20$ rack just flexes like a wet noodle and that ain't nice.

The catch is that the most expensive thing to make it a good tourer are the racks and panniers (tubus and ortlieb) and that I won't be able to go cheap on these - I know what the cheap ones feel like, and don't want that on a 2/3 months free-camping tour from Paris to Istanbul, then across Turkey.

I realized that all my stuff would fit on a pair of back roller classics (plus tent, sleeping bag and mat on top of the rear rack), and a small handlebar bag more for convenience than load. I'll probably be carrying around 15kg of stuff, might sometimes increase but never reach 20kg. I weight 75 kg, and plan on losing at least 5 in the meantime...

So, if it fits on 2 bags, could I get away with not buying a front rack and front panniers, saving me nearly 200€? Given the conditions - couple months free-camping across europe, and maybe back via Ukraine which, I guess, would end up as a 7000km tour- would you advise against putting all the load on the back? Or would I be just fine?

Thank you,
Nicolas

P.S: Fork has lower eyelets. I will buy new wheels, a pair of Mavic XM719 on Deore LX hubs as my single walled alex rims are already beaten to death and would sure fail in the meatime - if I have to spend money on wheels, let's do it before leaving and take the better option for 50€ more. Change to butterfly handlebars for comfort. Replace 1:1 Sram 5.0 grip shifters with thumbies+levers (already have the levers). So, change rear derr to a Shimano one to match cable pull. Also change brakes to Avid SD7 as stamped steel brake arms might be pushing it a bit too much (yet I'm not sure... they do work). So, under 400€ mechanical changes, and 200€ for racks and panniers. A more reasonable figure that I yet find a bit hard to swallow but...

Some folks prefer going ultralight and using only rear panniers, or even none at all:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...tralight-cycle

https://www.google.com/search?q=ultr...bikeforums.net

If your goal is to save 200E=261USD on gear, you should reconsider whether you have adequate funds for a tour. Touring costs upwards of $20 per day here in the USA, and I am sure it's more in Europe. 200E probably won't last more than a week.

If you're asking if you can get by loaded rear only, then yes, if you are willing to travel light with little gear, clothes and food. Note that lighter, more compact gear usually costs more, so your gear cost might offset the cost of a front rack and panniers. Also, if you are not carrying cooking gear and much food you are forced to eat from more expensive restaurants and venders, which also increases cost. It is counter-intuitive, but perhaps spending more money for front racks and panniers may actually save money overall.

With all the load on the rear, so you'll end up with a R:F weight distribution of perhaps 80:20 unless you pack very light. This tends to kill rear wheels and cause handling issues like shimmy. With no front rack/panniers you have no way to rearrange load in the event of handing problems or to manage an unforeseen extra load. You can build a super duper rear wheel to handle this load, but again this extra cost would perhaps pay for a front rack and panniers.

No matter how you do it you'll probably end up spending more than you wish, and carrying more than you wish.

I do credit card touring (e.g., no camping equipment or cooking gear), and so far, have always managed to fit all my stuff in two rear panniers and a backpack (which I strap to the top of the rear rack). I keep my wallet, passport, cell phone, etc. in a fanny pack. My tools are in a wedge pack under the seat. My luggage weighs 18 to 28 lbs. (8 - 13 kg).

Touring.. It's the Going, not the Gear..


but, yea load the rear wheel with 80% of the weight,
be prepared to do wheel repairs and spoke replacements on your own.

Ideally, four smaller panniers of equal size, distributed front and rear. Two big panniers in the rear plus front panniers mean you're carrying too much stuff. If you have just two big bags, putting them on a front lowrider with the tent and whatever else can be put into a stuff stack strapped to the top of the rear rack would be much more stable.

Don't compromise on anything that will make this tour more fun. A stable ride is important. 60/40 weight distribution makes for a more stable ride. As mentioned, the extra space for food can be a significant money saver.

Sure, you CAN do it with all on the rear. But don't if it's not absolutely necessary. Both sets of panniers don't have to be the best. Ortlieds on the rear, downscale for the front.

All the advice on balancing weight front and rear surely has merit but we did a lot of touring back in the late 70's and early 80's and we didn't even know front racks and panniers existed. To this day, if I can go light enough, I'll still head out with rear panniers only, but then the bike better have a solid rear triangle since I don't appreciate excessive sway when I jump out of the saddle when climbing.

We don't use front racks and panniers. Once, I tried going with the more traditional setup of having 4 panniers, and within about 3 days, I had ditched 2 of the panniers. It's just too heavy, too cumbersome, too awkward trying to cart around 4 panniers.


This is our setup ...

Don't commit to rear-pannier-only free-camping touring until you've test ridden your anticipated load. Front panniers make a loaded bike handle so much better and unless you're an ascetic ultralight guy, you're going to have to carry a decent amount of stuff.

Wow! I thought opinions would be more mixed.

Yes, I do have the money required to buy the extra rack and panniers. But if I don't need them, I'd happily dispense with them. Apart from non negligible money savings, it would also be a lot easier to carry when not on the bike, which is the reason I sold my Vaude Aquaback panniers - you had to open the pannier to get the shoulder strap which is a pain whenever you want to get in a store, or visit something. 4 panniers would sound like a plague to carry, but it might be doable, I don't know...

I'm not an ascetic ultra-light guy at all - and won't have to buy any new camping gear, so no money to be saved or spent there. I have a (Helsport) 3 place tent, just not to feel cramped. And a Trangia 25 kitchen sink, to avoid rushing into the nearest restaurant/shop and eating so much you barely can pedal after lunch. All of which makes for around 5 kg of camping gear, to which you add some food, burning alcohol, and an optional bottle of wine. I aim to spend under 10$/day which sounds perfectly doable.

That, with (admittedly barely enough) clothing, tools, maps etc... does fit in a pair of 2 large rear panniers with the tent, mattress and sleeping bag on top of the rack. That's how I used my recumbent for week-long tours in France - but sure this time I'm aiming "a little" further. But sure, I do suffer from some "shimmy" when I do the same on my upright bike. You're right that it might be as much due to weight distribution than the crappy flexy rack, something I didn't considered.

I sometimes work as a bike mechanic so repairs don't frighten me much but yeah I will buy new wheels, I already killed mines. Especially as I hate truing wheels.

Will think some more about it, but should hurry, I'm leaving in 2 months...

I'm taking the suggestion of front panniers only very seriously. But I know 2 small front panniers won't be enough. Can you put a pair of back-rollers in front? That with the camping gear on the rear might be better suited. But then, I have a front and rear rack, so am only 100€ from having a full 4-pannier setup. But 4 panniers sound like no fun to carry. What do you think of this option?

Thanks,
Nicolas

It is a plague to carry 4 panniers around.

My first tour with panniers etc., was 3 weeks in Europe in 2003, and I went with the setup in the photo I posted, only with smaller rear panniers. That worked just fine.

But then, in 2004, I decided to do a 3-month cycling tour in Australia, and I figured since I'd be travelling for 3 months, I'd want more stuff. So I went with a front rack, a rear rack, and 4 panniers. Within 3 days, I got ride of 2 of the panniers and about 10 lbs of other stuff. Much better. I've never used 4 panniers since.

I kept both racks on for that Australian tour, but discovered that my front rack was providing me with a lot of hand pain. Rowan removed it for me, and again ... much better. Since then, I've only used a rear rack.

It's not about how many panniers you use but how you pack them. Having 2 bags in the front with all the small heavy stuff and two bags in the rear with all the light bulky stuff isn't any more difficult to deal with than having everything in 2 rear bags. The bike, in fact, handles better with 60% of the weight on a front low rider. You'll experience less high speed shimmy and cornering will be easier with more load over the front wheel the the rear. Putting 40 or 50 lbs (18 to 25 kg) on the rear wheel makes for a dog that get wagged by its tail. It's also hard on equipment.

The other part of the equation is what you carry. Although I don't share the extremism of the ultralight guys...I still like some creature comforts...they do have a point. Minimize where you can. Just because you have the space, don't put something in it. With the exception of time when I'm traveling where food is less available, my panniers, especially the rear ones, are usually only half full. On a tour like yours, you'll probably want extra room for those times where food might be harder to find.

I´m still a touring newbie, so take my words with a large grain of salt, but...I found that I can along just fine with 2 back rollers, a rack pack and a handlebar bag (all Ortleib). They take my camping gear, cooking gear (can of fuel and a no-name burner plus dishes), several changes of clothes, incl. off-bike, and still plenty of room for more "stuff". I´ve gone on a couple of round-the-lake tours (very mountainous in parts) and found that my bike didn´t shimmy or leave me feeling unbalanced, even when tearing down some serious slopes. I weighed everything and did my best to keep the bags equally divided. I also found that I have a tendency to lean heavily on one side (working to correct that), so I put a tiny bit extra on that side to force me to balance better. I really hate the idea of having extra weight on my front wheels, so the handlebar bag is it for me. Try a couple of short day trips and see how it feels. I also carry a Camelbak since water is always my biggest concern (this is dry season here) but only use it when necessary. I´ll fill it with ice and enjoy super-cold water as it melts.

Have fun!

I went with 4 and loved it. The front panniers stabilized the bike to where it could be ridden with no hands.

Makes it quicker to find items.

Front, one for complete tent, one for all camping gear.
Rear, one for clothes, one for food,
Rack trunk for tools.

I've never had the need for 4 panniers.
2 rear, tent and guitar on rack, and handlebar bag.
Rides fine.

blackburn racks are plenty strong, should easily fit in your budget.

add a small pair of performance/nashbar front panniers to whatever your setup is
to carry cooking gear/tools/food.

I'm using the Front Pannier pair on my daily ride.. it Really does steady the handling..

particularly the low trail , small wheel bikes, I currently favor, [Bike-Friday]

Back in the Stone Age when I began bike touring fully loaded, I used 4 panniers. I quickly learned to carry less and less and enjoyed touring more and more. For the last thirty-five years I have used front panniers only on a high mount front rack and a dry bag stuffer on top of a rear rack. This balance has worked well on and off pavement. It is worth trying to see if it will work for you.

Has anyone tried skipping panniers entirely, and used a trailer instead? Or is that just double the flats to fix?

Does anyone know if I could fit Ortlieb Back-Roller to a tubus front rack? With the Tara (the classic lowrider) I have doubts. The Smarti might do the trick, though.
Arctos, no handling problems with the high load in front?

No handling problems when weight somewhat balanced side to side. I use the Bruce Gordon Front Mtn Rack which by design moves the panniers back somewhat behind the steering axis. This is instead of projecting weight out in front of the steering axis and front hub. A higher rack helps avoid obstacles like rocks, ruts and curbs which can cause a crash or damage the bottom of panniers.
Another benefit to front only panniers is wheels last longer in my extended experience. Without all weight over the rear wheel the wheel impacts potholes with less force. For context remember that I am a clydesdale and yet I have not broken a spoke in over two decades nor have I had to true the wheels even after the Divide Ride on my unsuspended BG RNR with 700x47 tires.

Here is a photo for clarification:

Seen tourists towing BoB trailers with road bikes, passing through here all summer .

I now have have adopted a a canoeists Portage pack,
that will fit in either of my 2 bike trailers .

I can climb stairs wearing the trailer
on my back and carry the bike in my hands..

damn handy when the place you want to go requires climbing over stuff to get there..

I am not familiar with your bike. If it has short chainstays, you will need a rack that puts the panniers farther back for more heel clearance. The Tubus Logo EVO would be a good example of a stiff rack that would provide good heel clearance.

I think you can get by with lower grade front panniers if small, but the large panniers with a lot of weight in the back need robust construction. My point is that if you decided to put a cheap front rack on the bike to be used with small cheap front panniers for lighter weight stuff, that could work nicely without costing too much. But your rear rack is one that you should not scrimp on, there you need to invest in a good quality rack to support the weight.

I've used this setup for overnight tours so far, and I'm pleased with it. Back rollers up front attached to a rear rack that's 'creatively' bolted onto the fork. One pannier is for the food/kitchen, the other is for clothing and a sleeping bag, so the weight on the front is not too heavy. The repair and maintenance stuff is in the seat bag. The bulky stuff on the back platform. Front and rear racks are the same, ie, interchangeable. They are $15 alu racks and don't sway. Handling is slow at first, then you get used to it.

I've done some major hill riding with this setup, with a 12 hour day in the saddle one time with no pain from handling the front wheel with panniers positioned in this manner. No shimmy; it's a real solid 80's mtb frame. Keep in mind that I'm young and fit.

edit: Notice that I'm not using drop bars. The riser bar gives me more leverage and I find it comfortable.