borromini

Ok, so i dug up an Italian bike from a private sellers advertisement, located just outside of Rome. The guy claimed it to be Pogliaghi, bought in '63 if his memory served him well. One hesitates before believing that stuff right away. My knowledge of these things is really limited, so I'd appreciate any help with Id-ing it.

The frame has a lot of rust, but on inspection nothing has dug in deep. Seller claims to have painted it himself which would explain the lack of decals whatsoever. (Indeed the lug details are done impationately by brush.) I've researched all the Pogliaghi pictures of older models I was able to find (few) and the angles seem to match (I've gathered that Sante Pogliaghi preferred slopier frames.)

The really cool part about the bike, whatever make it is, is the fact that the previous owner has drilled whatever he found drillable. Nouvo-record derrailleur and shifters have been milled out (drilled wheels), brake-levers are extensively drilled too, even the seat has been weight reduced. He also claims to have bought just the frame, which I guess would explain the mix of Campy hubs, pedals, seat-post, rear casette, shifters and levers, Weinmann brakelevers and Universal Mod.61 brakes, with Gipiemme crankset and 3 TTT stem.

The frame looks very old to me. Lugs and fork crown would match Pogliaghi (although the fork crown looks wider than pictures I've compared with), same as BB shell which is drilled. The things I've found interesting (at least what to me looks like evidence for an identification) are some distinct features. - The rear-brake cable-stop on the top tube looks ancient and stands alone. It is very narrow and therefore not intended for the cable housing to go through. This means that the wire travels through the seat pin, which I can't imagine being an original feature. Furthermore the centrepull Universal brakes are mounted in two points and not centrally, both rear and front, but this might be the way it was done, for all that I know. The gear levers and front derailleur is mounted with braze-ons (the latter with a kind that differs very much from my 80's frames) and not by clamps. Little pump peg underneath top tube.

Most important of all, the rear seat cluster has no 'PSM' or serial number, neither does the BB, although i might be seeing a 'C' under the BB shell (hard to tell from rust.) I find it strange that the frame lacks a serial number.

Any help with ID-ing this is greatly appreciated! (-after I've displayed my own lack of knowledge about this.) The rust is too bad to be left alone, so a respray is necessary and I'd really like to put the right color and decals on it.

borromini

Sorry about the low quality of the pictures

John E

I figure pre-1980 because of the over-the-BB cable routing. It is a nice-looking frame, although the drilling, a short-lived 1970s fad, is always amusing.

lotek 

The early to mid 60s frame on Classic Rendezvous shows chromed headtube lugs like yours
has, but it also clearly shows the PSM and serial number on the seatube.
The drillium on the frame itself is interesting, never seen that one before.
What I would do is post this the Classic Rendezvous List, there are some very Pogliaghi
knowledgeable members over there. I would imagine this will stir up quite a buzz, Pogs of
that vintage are few and far between

Marty

Otis

Interesting bike but I doubt it's a Pog. Looks more like an early 70's "California hot rod" build, with the "canti" rear brake mounting and cable run. Although then it would have a much shorter wheelbase, and probably not be found in Rome.

Might be a 60's bike "reworked" in the early 70's? Anyway, it's pretty cool.

Picchio Special

It would have been unusual for any Italian racing bike to have the braze-on cable guide on top of the bottom bracket in the 60's - it was standard at that time to use the Campagnolo clamp-on guide, as seen in many race photos well into the Merckx era. Of course, as with the front derailleur braze-on, this could have been added during a later repaint. That dog-leg in the fork bend also looks a little ungraceful to me for a Pog.
If you're really interested in a frame ID, you could provide more/better photos of the frame details (i.e. lugwork) instead of the components.

Pogliaghi

The braze - ons are definitely out of place for an early to mid 60s bike but as mentioned these may have been added later. I would like to see the seat stay cap treatment as well as the headtube lugs. Are there any holes in these luge (top or bottom)? I have a track bike #7800 which dates from about '65 or '66 and if I could see these areas I can compare. I have known some early Pogs to have a PSM on the top head tube lug (front). Pogliaghi went back to stamping the PSM in this area on the later frames as well.

repechage

Not vey many useful images here, for an old bike, the components are often red herrings, it is the frame deatails that help. The overview shot shows head lugs that MIGHT be Pogliaghi, as does the fork crown, over under and back. The frame has been resprayed no doubt, so modifications are very possible, updating was typical. Braze on brakes are atypical but not unheard of. Try Zanardi. Could be one of those even at this point, he was also known to experiment with details such as the modified front der. mount.

Multiple detail shots of the head lugs, fork crown, BB shell, seat cluster and stay ends would help more, including side views of the seat lug, as that is where Pogliaghi stamped serial numbers and the "PSM"

No matter, a good looking bike.

borromini

Ok, thanks for all the input! Will upload pictures as soon as possible. Regarding braze-ons, I posted a thread about those when i first had pictures emailed of the bike, and I was told they'd been around as a system for mounting derailleurs for ages. Anyway, pics on the way

borromini

Pictures of seatcluster and overview

borromini

Pictures of front lugs and frame overview

Noah Scape

Interesting... centerpull bosses. Too bad about the knucklehead DIY drillium.

WNG

It's been said, but I think the braze ons seem to be out of place for a 60-70s build. edited...
skip the brake comment.

Pogliaghi

Certainly has some Pog features but it almost equally has some non Pog features which for me still makes it an unknown. I would hunt all over for ANY marks - get the magnifying glass out. As mentioned earlier Pogs from the early 60s have been known to have the PSM stamp on the front of the headlugs - either upper or lower. The lugs do seem to be atypical (SP?) for an early 60s frame. Seems more like a late 60s frame. Pogliaghi did use those lugs on some of his frames and particularly on frames built by him under another name. The seat stay cap treatment looks right for a Pog as does the fork crown.

luker

well, whatever it is, it is very well made, and very original. I have never seen a front derailleur attached this way. I suspect that the frame builder dreamed this up, just like the pump peg. I've never seen one there either. The canti posts for the universal 61's were a fairly standard way to hotrod the performance of the brakes, and I have seen that detail on several bikes of the '60's.

Who made the cranks; the hubs?

Don't put any faith in any of the drilled parts, btw.

Pogliaghi

Hi Luker,

Here is a photo of an early 70s Grandis with the same pump peg idea.

https://image30.webshots.com/466/9/38...5scFXTu_ph.jpg

motovelo2

I doubt seriously if this is a Pog. Interesting none the less. Certainly not a Pog of 1963 especially. I own the white one on the cr site, #7606 and just acquired # 7175 and have pictures of several more and one thing they all have in common is the way the headlugs are worked with that point that looks something like a soft nervex. Sante was known to vary things somewhat, particularly in the 60's. The psm on the right side of the seattube seems to appear some where between #7188 and #7609, or roughly between 1963 and 1966. The pogliaghi italcorse stamping on the headtubes, I have only seen on #6844 and #6907 and seems like it may have disappeared before #7175 or about 1963. These dates are only approximate and still lots more to learn. Hope this helps
'

borromini

Ok thanks everyone, especially Motovelo2. The rust on the frame leaves it in a condition of utter need for respray. The big question is therefore what paint and decals are appropriate. Is there any way of narrowing it down to a few possible makers to make the search easier? Can it be taken for relatively certain that this is italian built and from the sixties? The fact that this was found in Italy seems to indicate that it was made in the same country, since it strikes me as quite un-italian to buy foreign cycling goods at the time. If then, braze-ons and all, this appears to be a sixties bike, how many serious frame builders were there around?

borromini

Cranks are campagnolo as well as the hubs. Could you explain how you can tell that it is a very well made bike? - I'd be very interested in any observations that suggest anything about the quality of the frame. By the way it should be noted that this bike is very lightweight. I haven't had a chance to weigh it, but it feels as light as, or lighter than all of my 80's columbus bikes.

Pogliaghi

Hi Motovelo,

What years do you think your #7606 and #7175 are? I have #7800 track bike acquired from Belgium and the locknuts have '65 date on them. I have thought mine to be 1966/67ish.

luker

It feels like your '80's bikes because it more than likely is nearly the same, in materials and assembly. You can tell the difference between gaspipe mass production and fine craftsmanship by looking at the finish details: look at the way that the lugs are filed to produce thin lands between the lugs and the tubing; look especially at the bottom bracket lugs...these are hardly ever finished at all on production bikes because it is difficult to see them on complete bikes.

Look to the other details as well...how the dropouts are joined to the tubing (full fillet brazing, in this case), the added detail in the chainstay bridge and the rear brake bridge, and all of those extras like the front derailleur mounting. Someone who knew what he was doing took his time and did a very nice job.

luker

oh, hey. I have never seen a campy crank with an interrupted space in the middle of the big flute - are you sure that it is campy? that would be the most interesting part of the bike, to me...

borromini

Thanks, and sorry, you're right, the cranks are Gipiemme, not Campy. Campagnolo pedals, however. They guy also told me had some 'Cortez' pedals of the sixties, which I have understood to be quite rare.

luker

I'm bumping this back up because I think we still have an open serial number issue...are you unable to read the serial number on yours? The problem with Italian (and English to a lesser degree) is that there were about a bazillion small builders in Italy before the middle '70's. In fact, Societie Mechannica (SoMec) was originally a consortium of small builders, set up as a way to compete against the Olmos and Bianchis of Italy. So, guessing who made yours, at this late date, would be as difficult as identifying which small builder built my Somec (I tried, I tried).

borromini

What paint did you put on yours? If there is no way of identifying it I would have to go for some standard SoMec colours. I have searched the BB without finding anything else than what i thought was a 'C' and which disappeared when I started sanding. After checking the head tube as well i haven't been able to find a serial number at all. Would this be unusual for such a quality frame? I'm posting some pictures which illustrate the circular lug details which are repeated on parts of the lugs.