donheff

My wife and I have never owned or ridden folders but have become interested because of this forum. We looked at a few today and plan to test ride on Monday. So far the Brompton was the most appealing followed by a Bike Friday Tikkit. I am curious whether experienced riders will agree based on our needs or whether we are not thinking things through.

We plan to use these bikes primarily for travel. We want to be able to toss them in the trunk, check them on a plane or carry them onto a train. Riding will be a mix of roads and MUPS with the worst conditions likely to be gravel roads and crushed limestone rail trails. Typical rides would be 30-40 miles. We don't plan on heavy touring although we will take lightly packed overnights from B&B to B&B. We would also use them in major cities and like the idea of being able to easily carry them indoors rather than lock them up outside. (We live in DC which makes us paranoid about theft.)

The Brompton appealed because of the ease with which it folded into a compact unit that could be put in a case and checked.The Tikkit looked like it was close in that regard. It seems like other options, like the Bike Friday NWT would require more breakdown work to pack up. Also, the Brompton appeared to be very solid and the shop owner was high on its ability to take hills - the model coming out next month will have an expanded gear range making it better in this regard.

Do Brompton owners think these bikes will meet the needs I have outlined. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcomed.

>>ECB<<

The Brompton is very good for travel. I take mine as checked luggage on planes all the time; its compactness definitely helps for flying. Just watch out for the luggage room gorillas.

All in all, I think the B would be ideally suited for the sort of riding & travel you'd be doing.

ECB

Speedo

I'm a Tikit owner who's done a fair amount of Brompton riding. If you are looking to do 30-40 mile rides I would think that you have crossed the threshold into Tikit land.

Speedo

somnatash

Hi - welcome!
Yes, a brompton will be very fine for your purposes. So probably will the ticket (no personal experience on that bike). A test ride is sure the best idea.
If you like to read more about the brompton, you might like to check those links:

https://www.flickr.com/groups/bromptonfolders
(lots of pics, for example with luggage)

https://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/bromptontalk
A yahoo email group, a bit odd to read but lots of info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJJ7zakGLbw
for air travel if you want to pack it

https://www.uwe-reimann.de/brompton/set6technik_e.html
site of a german fan (in english also)

https://www.foldsoc.co.uk

EvilV

Rough surfaces can be tough on small wheeled bikes. If there is much of the crushed limestone to be negotiated, gearing will be a key factor so you can get over it. Both are splendid bikes though.

energyandair

Both the Brompton and the Tikit have their advantages but I suggest that you also consider a Birdy.

All 3 bikes can fit into a suitcase for airline travel and all 3 are well built bikes.

The primary strength of the Brompton its compact tidy fold. If you need to fit two bikes into a very small trunk or will routinely take them on packed commuter trains, this consideration may outweigh all others. They also have a very conventient click on bag system but are not suited to paniers

The primary strength of the Tikit is its fast fold. If you will be folding and unfolding the bike many times a day then this may be persuasive but neither the Brompton nor the Birdy take very long to fold either. A second factor is the ability to get one configured to your dimensions. For riding any distance, most people prefer the Tikit to the Brompton.

The primary strength of the Birdy is comfort on rough surfaces. They also feel fast, are a lot of fun to ride, and are possibly a little lighter than the other two. For riding any distance, most people prefer the Birdy to the Brompton. I've not seen many Tikit/Birdy ride comparisons but I would expect the Birdy to be at least equal on smooth surfaces and have an increasing edge as the surface get rougher.

I bought a Birdy because I wanted one bike that could handle all my riding needs without me wishing I was on something else. It has not disappointed. I use it every day for commuting across town or tripping around at the weekend. If I was going to ride across Canada, I would also use it for that.

If you are test riding Birdys, note that they are available with two different handle bar stem riser angles and can generally be set up to suit most people very well provided that they have the stem riser that suits their needs. If you are tall and/or want a stretched out position make sure you get one with a 25 deg stem riser. If you are short and want an upright riding position, make sure that you get a 10 deg adjustable height stem.

David

folder fanatic

You are on the right track for a good, durable folders. For serious compact use, nothing beats a well made hand crafted bikes like the Brompton and the tikit. To decide between the two makes, it seems I have to break down your requirements further below.

I have owned my simple Brompton for 3 years this month. I have never seen the tikit except on the Internet. But I have researched each bike and have used my Brompton for train travel and commuting.

Both the Brompton and the tikit is made for travel/commutes. The main difference between the two is the ability to be place whole in the suitcase without major taking apart the bike(s) for transport adding to that the size of the package. I have found that my Brompton wins hands down on that front. All I have to do is to fold it up and place it in the right size suitcase. The tikit, demostrated on it's own Website, seems to have to be taken apart in degrees in order to fit.

My simple 3 speed Brompton goes up hills with ease-my gearing is set at around 12% lower than stock-but the new 6 speed system is very appealing to me. The next Brompton I buy will have this option already installed. For durability, I have never had anything other than simple maintenance done periodically for the past 3 years-nothing major ever went wrong with the bike. I plan on keeping it for at least 10 or more years. Most owners keep their Bromptons for a long period of time too.

In my own experience, the Brompton is a very quick handling, beautifully made product. It is very balanced when carried up or down stairs. It has many accessories that can be added to increase it's appeal. I have modified my own Brompton with minimal expense (under 100 US dollars) for a new saddle, metal shifter, brake pads, folding pedal, and fabric for my own homemade bag. The tikit might have more derailleur orientated gearing offered, but I prefer to have internal hub gearing on my bikes. To see photos of my Brompton see my 2 sets Evolution & Touring Hollywood.

alpacalypse

While the Tikit is a great around-town bike, it's actually deceptive-- it seems to be a pretty hard bike to travel with, because it's actually not that compact when folded.

At 30-40 miles, you may want to consider a slightly larger wheel and bikes with more "big-bike" options. I've never ridden a brompton, but I rode a tikit and found it very flexy in the stem area and kind of cramped (I'm 5'10"). Not a big deal for around town, but possibly a problem at longer distances.

A simpler, larger-wheeled bike like the Swift Folder (the cheapest, easiest variant being the Xootr Swift at https://www.xootr.com/xootr/swift/bikes.shtml) may be your best bet. Disclaimer: I've got one and love it. It rides like a full-sized bike, has 20" wheels and clearance for fat tires, and uses all "normal bike" components from hubs to handlebars. It doesn't fold that small, but in 5 minutes you can disassemble it down to airline-legality by removing the pedals and front wheel.

Other 20" folders that I've heard good things about are Birdy, the higher-end Dahons, the ubiquitus Raleigh 20, Airnimal, Mezzo and Downtube.

somnatash

@alpa: Yes, for riding long distances fitting is crucial. If you have the chance to try a brompton in comparisson, please post your impression. I would love to try a ticket. I am 5'10 too and find my brompton very fine stretched out but that's with s-stem! That said, the longest rides, I did so far on my brompton were about 20+ but I know there are a lot of people who do hundreds of miles and the brompton is considered a good touring bike as long as the surface is not too much off-road.

timo888 

Small enough for public transportation and robust enough for riding distances on crushed limestone is a difficult combination to satisfy. No folding bike I know does both equally well, and you'll probably have to decide which of the two is the more important to you.

How small does a Pacific IF Reach Cross-Country get?

Regards
T

InfiniteRegress

I have a friend who has a Brompton and he loves it. I think he has a 3-speed model and I honestly don't know how many rides he's done on it longer than 5-6 miles, but I know he's been very happy with the overall quality and ease with which it folds. He lives in DC and got it for the same reasons you mention (fear of theft). Also, I don't know if you've looked at them, but I've been really happy with my Dahon. I spent about 6 months seriously researching folders and the bottom line is that all of them have positive and negative aspects. But they are awesome in general, especially living in a place like DC. I take my bike onto the Metro/Amtrak train all the time, and love the fact that it takes up such little room in my house.

tcs

It's your call, but I wonder if the urban mixed modal bikes you're looking at are really the right thing. I wouldn't trade minutes packing for hours on a bike that was out of its element.

In addition to something obvious like the BikeFriday Pocket Expedition, another option would be a bike like the Dahon Speed P8. It could travel with you too and the 20" Big Apple tires on these bikes would handle those gravel roads better than the 16x1 3/8 on the tikit and Brompton.

HTH,
tcs

somnatash

Yes, I too think the brompton is not the best for off-road. Still its a very strong and sturdy bike and occasionally riding on gravel roads should be no problem. Since pics can tell more than words:

OldiesONfoldies

I own a Brompton and a tikit, and have ridden both extensively around SE Asia. Allow me to share my experience.

"The Brompton appealed because of the ease with which it folded into a compact unit that could be put in a case and checked.The Tikkit looked like it was close in that regard."

While the Brompton beats the tikit in compactness, it will not fit into a 29" standard suitcase. So you need to get a Brompton specific case to travel around with. The tikit will fit easily and its a 10 min job really. No drama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m29V31VgfI

Certainly, the Brompton smaller package is a plus when on board trains, cars etc.

For longish 30-40 mile rides, the tikit would be a better bet. More flexible riding position against the "fixed" Brompton style, better gearing (can custom) - v impt esp for climbs, quick release hubs for easy puncture repairs, much firmer feel and better handling (no split in the frame), superior brakes. The tikit also is able to take std Orb panniers easily on its front rack vis a vis a Brompton touring bag.

Both bikes will not be the best choice for gravel roads but it can be done. Here, a 20" wheel like the Big Apples as someone pointed out, would be the better choice.

I will plumb for the tikit over the Brompton, given your riding requirements, but you don't have to agree with me.


Brompton with Topeak touring set up. - QR rack plus Trunk bag.


An off road tikit in Pai, Thailand

David Lam of Bfold has some good insights for your consideration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW5AL...eature=related

donheff

I'm curious about why people say 20" tires are better on gravel than 16". I would expect the width of the tire would make the difference as in road tires vs my 32Cs on the Tricross. Gearing, of course would impact so I will be interested to see whether the range Brompton claims for their 3x2 setup feels as good as the standard setup on a Tikit. I am concerned about the lack of adjustment on the Brompton so we will have to see how they fit. Thanks for all of this info -- it has made me dial back my tendency to impulse buy. We really need to spend some time on this decision. Maybe we need two sets of folders - Bromptons for city visits and Bike Fridays for rural touring. N+1

jefmcg

I own a mezzo and have to agree with the above. The Brompton and Mezzo could probably do the 30-40 miles, but not in comfort. If you already owned a Brompton and there was a opportunity to do that distance, I'd say go for it, but it's not a bike I'd buy for that use. The upright style is great for 2 or 3 miles in a suit, but would get tiresome soon after that.

The furthest I've taken my mezzo is something like 13 miles (with a lunch break in the middle), and the geometry was fine for that distance, but my hands were buzzing from vibrations from MUP surfaces - note to self, next time wear gloves!

joan

EvilV

Smaller wheels have a harder time lifting over bumps, even small ones. The transition over the bump is more severe because of the smaller circumference of the wheel. This makes for a harsher ride on rough surfaces by comparison to a larger wheel. Small wheels are fine on good roads, 26 inch ones are much better over the rough. Where packing size counts, and rough roads for extensive distance are expected, a twenty inch wheel will be more comfortable than a sixteen.

bykerouac

Wow, some awesome responses and pics here! Donheff, I would not hesitate recommending the Brompton since I think it will take care of most of your needs (Brompton owner here), but having said that, I have tried the Tikit and I think it is an excellent bike too. You won't go wrong with either. Since you are planning to get 2 bikes, why not buy one of each? I would love to read a comparative report (Don't tell my wife but I am currently angling for a Tikit.)

The vanilla M-type Brompton is set up for an upright ride which is great for city riding. I prefer a stretched out position though, and minor tweaking such as reversing the seatpost adapter, tilting the handlebar forward and adding barends accomplishes this. In recent months I have changed the M handlebar to a riser MTB type and it is perfect for me. The longest ride I have done is around 70 miles - not as fast as I would be on my road bike or city SS, but quite comfortable.

tcs

Not speaking for anyone else, but I suggested looking at the 20" wheel bikes not only for the diameter (see EvilV's explanation) but the bikes I mentioned will fit very wide tires. These wide tires can be run at lower pressures when you ride on gravel roads and unpaved trails, aiding directional stability, traction and shock absorption. You can pump them up some for pure pavement riding.

HTH,
tcs

tcs

I really like the way you've got your Brompton configured.

tcs

makeinu

Especially because '20"' and '16"' are kind of misnomers. As it's been pointed out before, there are two '16"' rim sizes (305mm and 349mm) and two '20"' rim sizes (406mm and 451mm) with approximately 2" between each size.

That being said, the Brompton and the Tikit use 349mm rims which, with stock tires (37mm wide), result in a wheel approximately 16.5 inches in diameter. However, the 406mm rims are the most common small wheel variety and has most tire choices of the four. If you use 406mm rims with the best wide tires available (50mm wide big apple) then the resulting wheel would be a hair under 20 inches in diameter.

So, if you ask me, the '20"' tires aren't better on gravel because of their larger diameter (they're only 2.25" larger), but because there are better, wider tires available in that size.

cyclistjohn

Joan, I'm intrigued at "2 or 3 miles in a suit".

Normally my *shortest* daily ride is 17 kms, more often 40 kms. The longest I've ridden a M3L (been riding one since end of August) is about 80 kms, so not quite bykerouac's distance - yet :-)

I'm interested in understanding what makes a bicycle "comfortable". The M3L I don't yet find quite as comfortable during a 20 km ride, as, say, a Dahon Hammerhead 7. However, after about 20 km, on a HH7, my hands feel numb. On the M3L, I feel the same at the end of a long ride (apart from usually needing a beer ;-)) as at the start of the ride, ie. no numbness.

I've also ridden the new Mezzo for just a mile or so, & the steering felt a bit more "big wheel" like, so would imagine 80 kms + would be fine on that bike too.



Can you expand on "More flexible riding position" please? I've seen a Tikit, but sadly not had the opportunity to ride one.

Also, do you really feel QR wheels are better in practice? I thought so too initially, but the reality is that most bike's forks come with raised lugs, which means they take (for me anyway) as long to undo & redo, as the 2 nuts on a Brompton wheel. Furthermore, QR's seem to be a theft hazard, unless one uses special QR locks.

I'm reasonably confident I will be able to make a Brompton more comfortable than I currently experience, but I won't be able to fold some other folders as compactly as a Brompton ;-)

makeinu

If you want the quick release to live up to its name you have to file off the lugs (or as sheldon brown calls them "lawyer lips"). Many people do it, including myself, because they're unecessary and otherwise its just a "tool-less release" which, as you noted, isn't actually any quicker than regular nuts.

Wheel theft is only a problem if you lock the bike outside and, IMO, if you're locking a 16" wheeled bike outside then you bought the wrong bike...especially for expensive bikes like the Brompton or Tikit.

I don't know if I agree with this. The Brompton really isn't that much smaller than other bikes. In fact, given the difficulty of removing the Brompton's seatpost I'm pretty confident that there are many folders with 305mm wheels which are smaller after seatpost removal and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some 20" folders too.

Now, before I start hearing from folks claiming that the Brompton is the only bike they've found to be small enough to fit in a suitcase, allow me to point out that I couldn't fit my umbrella in a suitcase despite it being so small that airlines don't even count it as luggage. Suitcases are designed for flat items like clothes and, despite the Brompton being slightly flatter than most folders, the truth is that trying to put a folder in a suitcase is literally like putting a square peg in a round hole. Size has little to do with it.

The unique thing about the Brompton is it has some bits to make it latch together and a square fold. If one were so inclined I don't see why other folders couldn't be made to latch together just as easily as one could make the, very unadjustable nonstandard Brompton, fit. If you need a square package then the Brompton is it, but I really don't think it's more compact.

Sorry, maybe this is the wrong thread to be saying this stuff in, but I wish the Brompton lived up to all the hype surrounding it because I'd love to have the wonder bike that people make it out to be. But whenever I try one out I end up disappointed with the fact that half of what people say it can do it can't do well without hours upon hours and thousands of dollars of extra modifications and the other half it doesn't do at all. Maybe it's different in the UK where the ubiquity of the bike adds more appeal and the dealers are more knowledgeable, but I have great difficulty seeing the Brompton for all its cracked up to be.

cyclistjohn

Thanks for that link. It'd certainly be worth doing on bikes out of warranty.

When I wrote that, I was thinking of the QR's on the 406 mm wheels on a HH7, for example, not 305 or 349's :-)

I've actually taken a HH7 into a supermarket, wheeling it around the aisles, but I wouldn't attempt it on a regular basis, & don't take that bike if I know I'll have to go inside premises frequently.

I feel locks on a bicycle are almost pointless, hence one of the reasons to use a folder in the first place.


I don't have enough first hand knowledge of other 305's than Strida to know.

Our Stridas have been on all kinds of transport & have survived really well, as they're very robust, but of course much simpler than say, a Brompton. I haven't traveled by air yet with a Brompton, so I'm unsure how well it will fare, & need to give a lot of thought to what kind of case it needs to go in!

In my experience of a limited amount of folders, it's the shape of the occupied folded space that's significant, which I imagine is what you mean? For example, a couple of places I visit don't have a suitable space for even a Brompton, but they do for a Strida, since the Strida's "wheelprint" is smaller than a Brompton's, as you're aware. In other situations, the Strida's a wee bit too tall, but Brompton fits fine.

The main problem is not knowing before starting a trip what shape space (if any) is available :-)

jur

The difference between 16" and 20" will depend on the looseness of the surface you're riding. Width of wheel, though important, does not have the major say in the matter where wheel size dominates the effect: If loose and deep gravel or sand, the 16" wheels will choke. It's very hard to ride them through that stuff - as the wheel sinks into the loose surface, it creates its own steep slope that you have to continually master. A bigger wheel has less trouble there, not sinking as deep and simultaneously having less "own" slope.

If the surface is firmly packed and even-surfaced, even if there is a thin sprinkling of loose crushed limestone on top, then I call the difference between 16" and 20" as not significant enough to determine bike choice. I have used 16", 18" and 20" on all sorts of surfaces ranging from tar-topped to loose deep sand, and I now know how they respond to various situations.