noisebeam

What is a bigger safety hazard, drivers thinking you shouldn't be in lane and honking or drivers not seeing cyclist because they are not paying attention?
I think the later by far - can that be addressed with motorist training?

I do think there should be more emphasis on cyclists rights in driver training - wiht specific examples of cyclist 'taking' narrow lanes and cyclists destination positioning at intersections.

I had a similar thing happen last week - road striped with BL, but construction (bike lane closed sign a mile back) and many right turns into commercial (strip mall, gas stations) so I was riding in center of lane with red ight ahead 1/8mi or so and one car stopped. Same direction lane to my left to me was empty. I was slightly slowing as light was red. Car come up behind honks, gets closer, honks, I come to a temporary stop behind car at red light just as light turns green. As accelerating thru intersection (limited by car ahead) the car behind honks again. The BL across the intersection was completely closed down (a trench actually). Motorist behind me still honked then moved to left lane and passed while yelling something I couldn't understand - I yelled back "Have a fing great thanksgiving!" (as it was the Wed. the day before going home from work) I have a video and can post, but these are a dime a dozen.

Al

noisebeam

Harrassment, abuse, intimidation, endangerment, etc....

I wasn't making a careful distinction between which types of intentional bad driver behavior (i.e. Tailgaiting, agressive intentional close pass, honking, yelling, throwing stuff, swerving toward.) toward cyclist fit into which category.

Al

genec

The inattentive drivers are a bigger hazard... by far. The honkers have seen you... they are not likely to run you over (unless totally deranged... but that is very rare).

The inattentive can run you over in a heartbeat...

Can that be trained out of them... darn good question and something that keeps me quite uncomfortable at times. Cell phones are the biggest problem in my view... but it could be anything... and auto manufactures just keep installing new distractions all the time.

The inattentive regularly run into other motorists... So insurance companies are actually working on their problems. Sadly the solutions seem to be things like air bags and reinforced doors and the like... cocooning the offender, but doing nothing for the peds or cyclists also involved.

genec

But there are differences... not all these actions arise from the same source... so some have solutions... others may not.

I don't know of any way to stop teen antics... but the other behaviours may simply require some driver training.

Your issue of "inattention" however is one that is quite difficult to handle. Unless we outlaw inattention... which is never going to happen.

AlmostTrick

That would be sweet... and a real eye opener to everyone I've ever talked to about cyclist rights.

Regarding inattentive motorists "not seeing" a cyclist... If you're in the travel lane with hi vis gear and blinking lights, it seems highly unlikely that a motorist would fail to see you. At least that's what I keep reading around here.

genec

I wish that was the case... but some of these folks are so buried in their other task (that is not driving) that there is hardly anything you can do to get their attention. Think of a texting motorist for example.

I think that these folks scared even Helmet Head... which might be why he went on his long rants about riding out of bike lanes and such. He studied trying to get motorists' attention for a reason. I have a feeling that dancing on the road in a gorilla suit will not even work.

These folks run into other vehicles regularly... so it is not just cyclists that are in peril. I have a feeling that the final solution will be just to remove the control of the vehicle from the inattentive driver. That may be ultimately what insurance companies work for... a fully controlled self drive car.

But until then... I have no good solutions for these inattentive motorists.

The unaware motorist however, we can retrain.

noisebeam

That is fully my experience too. I've never had to take evasive action from a rear approaching vehicle that didn't see me when I was riding center biased in narrow lane - I may someday and am always prepared to do so, but not yet.
Same at intersections. More, but not all, motorist see me and don't pull in front of me when I am center biased.
So cyclist education can help quite a bit it seems.

noisebeam

https://www.its.dot.gov/ivi/docs/IVIBrochure.pdf

Will this make motorist more or less attentive? Can we rely on technology? Will it fully and properly account for bicycles?

al

Shiznaz

For me the intentional harassers tend to be males between 20-35, the inattentive drivers tend to be 35+ male or female.

Just last week I was taking the lane and a bread delivery van jumped up onto the sidewalk and sideswiped me to get by (my left side of my jacket is filthy now). We were just approaching a stop sign so I confronted him. He then got out of his van and threatened to murder me. I took off down the road and he chased me, repeatedly revving his engine coming up to my rear wheel and then braking. He eventually passed me again on the sidewalk. Very scary.

I reported it to the police but they didn't seem to take it too seriously. I also tried to call the bakery to get the driver in trouble with his boss but somehow they will not talk to me even though they have no idea who I am or what I'm talking about (I just ask to speak to the manager). I have heard other bad stories about this bakery's delivery vans too.

The driver told me I wasn't far enough to the right. What a maniac.

genec

1) NO, but who cares... one does not have to be "attentive" to be a passenger.

2) No, all technology fails at one point or another... the real question is will this generally be better than merely relying on humans. (they also fail quite frequently)

3) It has to or it cannot be permitted to "be on the streets." It also has to watch for pedestrians...

Now as a side note, every time I have mentioned the approach of such technology, there are cyclists here on BF that wail "you can have my steering wheel when you pry it from my cold dead hands." They refuse to believe that technology is moving their way and that they will roll over for it. Strange response for cyclists, eh?

I just read the NTSB report on the accident in the farmers market (different thread) and buried deep in that report was this tidbit:
"To the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:
Once standards for event data recorders are developed, require their installation in all newly manufactured light-duty vehicles. (H-04-26)"

This is the first step in going "all electronic" on vehicle control. Monitoring of vehicles and the reaction of motorists via a "black box" will allow the gathering of data to better design autonomous vehicles.

These EDRs exist already in a number of vehicles and have been used in court cases to verify witness accounts.

Anybody that doesn't believe that technology is going to evolve and modify "transportation," has not been paying attention for the last 100 years or so.

fordfasterr

I do.

noisebeam

Would the 'human driver' really be just a passenger? How much control is given to the machine driver? Can the machine car change destination mid route? How soon before turn can 'human driver' change mind of destination? Can it speed? Will it always stop at stop line? Can it turn right on red if legal?

Now realistically in our lifetimes I expect the machine to provide assistance, alert and slow car automatically for hazards, other cars, bikes, etc., but not be in full control of everthing - so the human is not just a passenger. This is where it become tricky, cause then these 'machine protections' make fast or agressive driving safer in theory and make it more possible to not only use cell phone, but browse Bike Forums as well.

Al

genec

Not sure of the answers... have only seen the results of the hiway tests. I have a feeling that the first implementation would be on some sort of limited access roads (freeways) and the driver will be alerted upon near approach of some sort of terminal (exit ramp).

The folks that are in the know, predict some form of this by 2020. Based on other tech predictions, I suspect that timeline is very optimistic.

I also tend to agree that anything that makes driving safer/easier for the occupants of the vehicle, does little to protect those outside the vehicle... ie cyclists. Time will tell.

I wonder what happens if you step off the curb in front of one of those new auto parking cars?

noisebeam

I see a new extreme sport possibility or at least a weekend pastime.

Al

Wogster

Actually what really makes drivers angry is their own attitude, nothing on that list, is something a driver can really do anything about, so why get steamed about something you can't do anything about? Except maybe the aggressive bus or truck driver, note the date, time, vehicle or tag number, company name and telephone number, call the company and complain. Companies that get constant complains about certain drivers, can and will do something about it.

The Human Car

Personally I find drivers that are not paying attention are driving in “automatic” mode and thus fairly predictable. And on the other hand I have noticed areas where harassing cyclists is all the rage and drivers are getting more affronting in their treatment of cyclists and this concerns me a great deal as it seems harassing cyclists is becoming more socially acceptable and the intimating efforts are getting closer to life threatening. It’s not honking that bothers me so much it’s the buzzing and the too close changing back to your lane that is getting really scary.

On the flip side I will note that I had one experience where a motorist decided that rather then use the other available through lane to pass me decided to tailgate me for a while honking and then ride next me cursing at me and telling me to get off the road. Since we were coming up to a red light I decided to wait and talk to him there. I got off one comment when the driver in the left hand turn lane next to this guy joined in and started shaming this driver about his behavior. The light turned green and these two were still at it. It was really cool to see a motorist so vehemently defending cyclist’s rights a lot more effective then anything I could have done.

DCCommuter

The complete study results are here:

https://www.racq.com.au/images/Motori...rtype_2006.pdf

It appears that their methodology was to make a list of 45 objectionable behaviors, have respondents grade each one on a five point scale, and then rank them by average grade. Of the 45 listed behaviors, there were four related to cyclists:
* Cyclists who fail to use appropriate lights at night
* Cyclists who 'run' red traffic lights
* Cyclists who fail to wear helmets
* Cyclists who blatantly disobey road rules, e.g., 'running' red lights, failing to wear helmets, failing to use appropriate lights at night

Some interesting tidbits:
- Heavy vehicle operators are the most annoyed by cyclists, and motorcyclists are the least bothered -- even less than other cyclists. Motorcyclists are particularly not bothered by cyclists who don't wear helmets.
- Drivers over 35 are much more annoyed by cyclists than younger drivers. The annoyance is pretty level until age 35, but increases steadily with age thereafter. Older drivers are particularly bothered by cyclists without lights.

What's interesting is that they didn't include something like "cyclists who don't get out of the way of cars" or "cyclists who block traffic." That seems to be a real hot-button with lots of drivers.

genec

Pretty consistent with what I run into on the streets... I even mentioned the older age of the motorists that tend to deny my rights.

I can only believe that situation arises from older drivers first not being informed of the rights of cyclists, and second forming their own long held opinions about cyclists rights... or rather their "ownership" of the road. Typical thinking: "...my taxes paid for these roads... "

Keith99

With aggressive drivers you have pointed out two really different levels. Those that honk, yell and otherwise express dislike vrs. those who actually take physical action, e.g. tailgating buzzing etc. I think with inattention the same can be done. There are those on auto-pilot, yes sort of zoned out, but their eyes are still on the road and their car is between the lines one could say their mind is idling. Then there are those a step farther. Their mind is on something else. The cell phone, makeup, reading the paper or just gone. These people do not have their eyes on the road or car between the lines.

Thinking about it I agree with you that the first level inattention being the easiest to deal with. But that higher level may be the worst, your first warning is apt to be contact.

DCCommuter

One thing to keep in mind is that the legal treatment of bicycles has twice changed dramatically in the past 70 years. From the end of WWII to about 1970 bicycles were increasingly restricted on the road. Beginning in the 1970's the pendulum swung, as the model codes were updated to treat bicycles as vehicles, and states adopted the model codes. So many of these older drivers may well have learned to drive at a time when cyclists did not enjoy the rights they have today.

Another factor is that as you age, your hearing and vision tend to get less acute. I think that's why older motorists have more issues with cyclists without lights.

DCCommuter

I've come to view inattentive drivers as just another road hazard, like puddles, potholes and hills. It's my job to avoid them, and I can no more get angry at them than at a puddle. There are some whose first reaction when they become aware of me is to get mad at me for startling them; I will get a little huffy with them.

Shiznaz

I've never had a pothole chase me down the street and threaten to kill me!

sbhikes

I think the danger is equal with inattentive and aggressive driving. Like Kieth mentioned there are active and passive versions of both inattention and aggression. But all of these can lead to driver error and accidents.

Also, inattentive drivers is the number one reason why some cyclists I know will not willingly ride on roads, and only barely tolerate with white knuckles a bike lane. Aggressive drivers is number two on their list. As in, even if you could rid the world of the inattentive there would still be the aggressive and so they will never willingly ride on roads.

LittleBigMan

(11) Cyclists who think they can use the road along with cars.

(12) Cyclists who don't use gasoline.

(13) Cyclists who wear those silly colored pajamas that show too much of their bodies.

(14) Cyclists who don't ride on the sidewalk.

(15) Cyclists who use hand signals other than "right," "left," or "stop."

(16) Cyclists who narrate along with their hand signals (#$#@%#$!!!)

(17) Cyclists who pass a car after they have already been passed by that car once already.

(18) Cyclists who think it's funny to squirt people with their water bottles when all those people were trying to do was to tell the cyclist to get off the road onto the sidewalk.

(19) Cyclists who spit.

(20) Motorists who ride with silly bicycles attached to the roofs of their cars.

(21) Cyclists who ride bow-legged while carrying plastic grocery bags on their handlebars.

(22) Cyclists who try to carry 2 x 4's on their bicycles.

(23) Cyclists who tow a pet in a trailer, or who ride with a bird cage strapped to their rack with an African Gray Parrot inside.

(24) Cyclists riding while talking on their cell phones.

(25) Cyclists riding while drinking coffee.

(26) Cyclists who stuff their pants into their socks.

(27) Cyclists who are lit up like Snoopy's doghouse on Christmas.

(28) Cyclists who park their bikes inside the grocery store next to the machines that sell gumballs and Homies.

genec

Yeah, well aware of that... primarily anyone over the age of about 50 was never told that cyclists had rights to the road... and most drivers license handbooks did not mention this (and barely do now anyway) until some time in late 80's or early 90's. And of course the older drivers biases and beliefs have been passed on to their children... as exemplified by those cyclists that ride contra flow... because that is what they were taught by their "wise" parents.

This is exactly why I have long touted that one thing advocacy can and should do is to publically come out and make the fact of cyclist rights known to the general public.

Helmet Head used to tell me that there was no need for this... that motorists would just naturally "give way," and that such a campaign would look like there was a safety problem for cyclists using the streets.

Well motorists do not naturally give way... they fight for what they believe is theirs... they do not want to share... unless you hit them in the wallet and make them understand.

And any campaign for cyclists rights can be worded in a way that paints a positive picture for all. Locally California has had a boating campaign going for the past 2 years that I would consider a prime example of something CA cyclists should also have going.

Here is the 2007 campaign for safe boating: https://www.dbw.ca.gov/PosterContest/factsheet.html

Yet nothing like this takes place for cyclists in this state... nor in most other states.