WOW!! Reynolds 953 stainless steel
#1
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Thread Starter
I just stole this off the Serotta forum
https://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11510
"Independent Fabrications have been quietly making road and track frames out of a brand new Reynolds tubeset - 953. It's super hard, very strong (and this track bike had 0.3mm wall thickness tubes. And it doesn't corrode (or so they reckon...) We'll be interested to see what the uptake is on it. Apparently no other framebuilder had even heard of the tubeset, so it was quite a coup for Indy Fab.
https://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11510
"Independent Fabrications have been quietly making road and track frames out of a brand new Reynolds tubeset - 953. It's super hard, very strong (and this track bike had 0.3mm wall thickness tubes. And it doesn't corrode (or so they reckon...) We'll be interested to see what the uptake is on it. Apparently no other framebuilder had even heard of the tubeset, so it was quite a coup for Indy Fab.
#2
Go Titans!!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Culver City, CA
Posts: 2,489
Bikes: '04 Eddy Merckx Team SC - Record - Rolf Prima Vigor; Andy Hampsten Cinghiale - Dura Ace 7800 - Rolf Elan Aero
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Wow, an interesting development
__________________
One must live the way one thinks or end up thinking the way one has lived.
--Paul Bourget
One must live the way one thinks or end up thinking the way one has lived.
--Paul Bourget
#3
Senior Member
Mmm, I don't think that stainless has the right properties for a bike frame, it's not "tough" enough. But, this reynold's stuff could be nice.
.3mm thickness? OUCH! I though my 1.1mm titanium was getting thin...
.3mm thickness? OUCH! I though my 1.1mm titanium was getting thin...
#5
hill hater
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: norton ohio 5.5 miles from center road tow path trail head
Posts: 2,127
Bikes: cannondale t400 1987 model and a raleigh gran prix from 1973
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Pure stainless would be near worthless but depending on the alloy it can be very tuff and strong. Take knife blade steel for example so many grades and alloys with various properties. Then theres stainless steel spring steel thats got a fairly high carbon content. Strong tuff and well springy. Pure unhardened stainless is soft and will bend if you look at it wrong pure stainless thats been hardened is very brittle (often called surgical steel as its used in scaple blades) Even this stainless isnt 100% pure and has some carbon added. This is probably some alloy that will be strong light and will be able to flex a fair bit with out cracking or breaking.
#6
Never fear the hills...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 872
Bikes: 2011 Giant TCR Advanced, 2010 Motobecane Fantom Cross Pro, 2011 Redline Monocog Flight 29r
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 531Aussie
this track bike had 0.3mm wall thickness tubes.
#8
I can't find my pants
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UMASS, Amherst/ Swick, MA
Posts: 2,331
Bikes: 07 Specialized Langster Comp,06 Kona King Zing, 06 Specialized Rockhopper Pro Disc; 03 LOOK KG461;(destroyed by suv); 85 Panasonic Team America; 73 Peugeot U0-8; 94 Balance Super B BMX; 04 Diamondback Outlook MTB, Diamondback DBR DH
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
#9
Senior Member
Hmmm, Reynolds-953, interesting.... reminds me of the Excell tubing used at Steelman.
What do you mean by "tough"? How do you measure it? Note that stainless has more alloy varieties than just about all other structural metals. It is used extensively in industrial applications, oil-refineries, food-processing, submarines, nuclear reactors not to mention in my favorite gun the Desert Eagle. Here's some standard properties of various materials:
Chromoly-4130, annealed
density: 0.284 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 81.2 kpsi
yield-strength: 52.2 kpsi
elongation@break: 28.2%
modulus elasticity: 29.7 mpsi
Titanium 3Al-2.5V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 89.9 kpsi
yield-strength: 72.5 kpsi
elongation@break: 15%
modulus elasticity: 14.5 mpsi
Titanium 6Al-4V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 120 kpsi
yield-strength: 110 kpsi
elongation@break: 12%
modulus elasticity: 15 mpsi
stainless-321, annealed
density: 0.289 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 95 kpsi
yield-strength: 60 kpsi
elongation@break: 40%
modulus elasticity: 28.5 mpsi
Gall-Tough+ stainless, annealed
density: 0.275 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 232 kpsi
yield-strength: 212 kpsi
elongation@break: 24%
modulus elasticity: 26.8 mpsi
Originally Posted by ivan_yulaev
Mmm, I don't think that stainless has the right properties for a bike frame, it's not "tough" enough. But, this reynold's stuff could be nice.
Chromoly-4130, annealed
density: 0.284 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 81.2 kpsi
yield-strength: 52.2 kpsi
elongation@break: 28.2%
modulus elasticity: 29.7 mpsi
Titanium 3Al-2.5V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 89.9 kpsi
yield-strength: 72.5 kpsi
elongation@break: 15%
modulus elasticity: 14.5 mpsi
Titanium 6Al-4V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 120 kpsi
yield-strength: 110 kpsi
elongation@break: 12%
modulus elasticity: 15 mpsi
stainless-321, annealed
density: 0.289 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 95 kpsi
yield-strength: 60 kpsi
elongation@break: 40%
modulus elasticity: 28.5 mpsi
Gall-Tough+ stainless, annealed
density: 0.275 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 232 kpsi
yield-strength: 212 kpsi
elongation@break: 24%
modulus elasticity: 26.8 mpsi
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 12-06-05 at 10:39 PM.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Originally Posted by ivan_yulaev
Mmm, I don't think that stainless has the right properties for a bike frame, it's not "tough" enough.
.
.
#12
Baby it's cold outside...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 7,310
Bikes: Trek 5000, Rocky Mountain Wedge, GT Karakoram K2, Litespeed Tuscany
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Hmmm, Reynolds-953, interesting.... reminds me of the Excell tubing used at Steelman.
What do you mean by "tough"? How do you measure it? Note that stainless has more alloy varieties than just about all other structural metals. It is used extensively in industrial applications, oil-refineries, food-processing, submarines, nuclear reactors not to mention in my favorite gun the Desert Eagle. Here's some standard properties of various materials:
Chromoly-4130, annealed
density: 0.284 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 81.2 kpsi
yield-strength: 52.2 kpsi
elongation@break: 28.2%
modulus elasticity: 29.7 kpsi
Titanium 3Al-2.5V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 89.9 kpsi
yield-strength: 72.5 kpsi
elongation@break: 15%
modulus elasticity: 14.5 kpsi
Titanium 6Al-4V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 120 kpsi
yield-strength: 110 kpsi
elongation@break: 12%
modulus elasticity: 15 kpsi
stainless-321, annealed
density: 0.289 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 95 kpsi
yield-strength: 60 kpsi
elongation@break: 40%
modulus elasticity: 28.5 kpsi
Gall-Tough+ stainless, annealed
density: 0.275 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 232 kpsi
yield-strength: 212 kpsi
elongation@break: 24%
modulus elasticity: 26.8 kpsi
What do you mean by "tough"? How do you measure it? Note that stainless has more alloy varieties than just about all other structural metals. It is used extensively in industrial applications, oil-refineries, food-processing, submarines, nuclear reactors not to mention in my favorite gun the Desert Eagle. Here's some standard properties of various materials:
Chromoly-4130, annealed
density: 0.284 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 81.2 kpsi
yield-strength: 52.2 kpsi
elongation@break: 28.2%
modulus elasticity: 29.7 kpsi
Titanium 3Al-2.5V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 89.9 kpsi
yield-strength: 72.5 kpsi
elongation@break: 15%
modulus elasticity: 14.5 kpsi
Titanium 6Al-4V, annealed
density: 0.162 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 120 kpsi
yield-strength: 110 kpsi
elongation@break: 12%
modulus elasticity: 15 kpsi
stainless-321, annealed
density: 0.289 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 95 kpsi
yield-strength: 60 kpsi
elongation@break: 40%
modulus elasticity: 28.5 kpsi
Gall-Tough+ stainless, annealed
density: 0.275 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 232 kpsi
yield-strength: 212 kpsi
elongation@break: 24%
modulus elasticity: 26.8 kpsi
#13
Retired Pro Rider/DS
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: second guessing Olaf and Rudy
Posts: 437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 531Aussie
I just stole this off the Serotta forum
https://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11510
https://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11510
Kudos to Reynolds who have not gone quietly into the night during this onslaught of new materials for bicycle frames. And kudos to them for staying clear of aluminum.
#14
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
You will no doubt be banned from the Serotta forum for this blatant forum espionage.
#15
Senior Member
Originally Posted by ViperZ
Based on those numbers it would seem Stainless is a very suitable material, It's strong and it has a nice elasticity. The 321 is inbetween the Titaniums in strength, yet less brittle.
Since people brought up aluminium foil, here's the properties for aluminium:
Aluminum 6061-T6
density: 0.0975 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 42.0 kpsi
yield-strength: 37.0 kpsi
elongation@break: 12%
modulus elasticity: 10 mpsi
Aluminum 7005-T6
density: 0.100 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 50.8 kpsi
yield-strength: 42.1 kpsi
elongation@break: 13%
modulus elasticity: 10 mpsi
Aluminum 7075-T6
density: 0.102 lb/in^3
ultimate-strength: 83.0 kpsi
yield-strength: 73.0 kpsi
elongation@break: 11%
modulus elasticity: 10 mpsi
The comparison metric you'd want to use here is yield strength-to-weight ratios (density) as this would let you design frames that would hold up to roughly the same amount of load before they take a permanent bend. So now we're looking at (yield-strength / density):
Yield Strength-to-Weight Ratios
184 - chromoly 4130
448 - titanium 3Al-2.5V
679 - titanium 6Al-4V
208 - stainless 321
701 - stainless Gall-Tough+
379 - aluminum 6061-T6
421 - aluminum 7005-T6
716 - aluminum 7075-T6
However, you can't design something to be as light as possible for the load, there's rigidity and stiffness to be considered as well. So let's compare the stiffness-to-weight ratio (modulus / density):
Stiffness-to-Weight Ratios
105 - chromoly 4130
89.5 - titanium 3Al-2.5V
92.6 - titanium 6Al-4V
98.6 - stainless 321
97.5 - stainless Gall-Tough+
103 - aluminum 6061-T6
100 - aluminum 7005-T6
98.0 - aluminum 7075-T6
Interesting to see that the materials are similar in stiffness-to-weight, eh? That means a frame designed from these materials to be similar in weight, assuming similar designs, will have similar stiffnesses as well. However, titanium or aluminium will end up being 2-3.5x stronger for the same stiffness as chromoly. And ordinary 304 stainless is actually weaker than chromoly for the same stiffness, 321 is similar and the exotic stuff ends up about the same as high-end titanium & alloy materials at 3.5x stronger for the same stiffness as chromoly.
As a designer, you've got to strike a balance of these two factors in addition to the design, manufacturing and costs as well.
Last edited by DannoXYZ; 12-06-05 at 10:32 PM.
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
All those materials numbers are worth thinking about, but the real truth about application to bikes is vastly different after welding, and the ability to form ceratin shapes in those materials. You cannot extrude stainless for example.
"100% stainless" is a meaningless term, there are >50 alloys of nickel, chromium and steel with different properties.
One big weight adavantage of SS is that it does not have to be painted or coated.
"100% stainless" is a meaningless term, there are >50 alloys of nickel, chromium and steel with different properties.
One big weight adavantage of SS is that it does not have to be painted or coated.
#17
Easy like Sunday morning
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That must be why, starting on day 2, the IF bike on display had a big pad strapped to the top tube right about where the handlebar would hit.
Extremely cool bike, though. The stainless is very industrial-looking.
Extremely cool bike, though. The stainless is very industrial-looking.
#18
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Kudos to Reynolds who have not gone quietly into the night during this onslaught of new materials for bicycle frames. And kudos to them for staying clear of aluminum.
#19
Retired Pro Rider/DS
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: second guessing Olaf and Rudy
Posts: 437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by viter
Not quite. Check out https://www.reynoldsusa.com/english.html. In addition to steel tubing, they also make...aluminum...(has anyone ever made a bke of this stuff?)
#21
Senior Member
Originally Posted by DocRay
All those materials numbers are worth thinking about, but the real truth about application to bikes is vastly different after welding, and the ability to form ceratin shapes in those materials. You cannot extrude stainless for example.
"100% stainless" is a meaningless term, there are >50 alloys of nickel, chromium and steel with different properties.
One big weight adavantage of SS is that it does not have to be painted or coated.
"100% stainless" is a meaningless term, there are >50 alloys of nickel, chromium and steel with different properties.
One big weight adavantage of SS is that it does not have to be painted or coated.
Depending upon the pre-heating, radius and thickness of the weld, and post-weld annealing, you can actually end up with a joint that's stronger than the tubing because it's thicker and has gradual and smooth blended contours which minimizes stress-risers. So welding stainless isn't any different than alloy or ti, you just have to know what you're doing. Some of the nicest stainless fabrications I've seen are custom exhaust headers for Harleys and race cars; simply works of art!
#22
Retrogrouch in Training
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I and some local folks visited IF in July and they mentioned they were testing some skunk works steel for Reynolds that would totally blow everyone away and completely reshape how we think about steel. They said they were actually thinking about moving away from Ti and back into steel for this stuff. Looks like this is it.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 182
Bikes: Colnago Master-Light, Fuji Cross-Comp Pro (CX), Giant Kronos
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'd love to see this come to fruition...I work in the pharma industry and we use/spec stainless steel for practically everything in "clean" spaces (ever see a stainless steel computer and mouse? Its pretty funny actually). We use mostly 306, or 316L stainless.... Oh it would be so cool to see a bike made of this 953. Cramerotti had a dedaccai stainless on their clearance page a couple of years back. Stainless is VERY hard to fabricate/weld etc. I'm sure IF will do it right...but really weird stuff can go wrong if the stuff is handled wrong during fabrication. For example, every tool that touches the s.stl must also be s.stl otherwise you may imbed non stainless steel in the material whis with then rust. We've had a lot of bone-head fabricators build something only to see it rust later on becasue you find out somone polished if with a non-stainless steel wite brush and the stairs (in this case) began rusitng becasue little particles of the wirebruss were imbedded in the stainless. Even hammers and wrenched should be stainless during the fabrication. Welding the stuff is a PITA. I'd love to find out some more about the composition of this stuff. I'd love to have a frame like this.....
#24
What icy wind?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Flat, windy and (dry) cold, Saskatchewan.
Posts: 665
Bikes: Cervélo Dual, old Pinarello Montello & older Miyata Alumicross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yeah but you know, my stainless stuff always gets this gunky residue when I put it in the dishwasher. I hope at least it comes in some nice patterns, errr I mean geometries.
#25
Retrogrouch in Training
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
They mention that it's difficult to work and I wouldn't be surprised to see a program similar to the 753 certification before a builder is allowed to use it.