rruff

Has anyone had long term experience with these? They are light and aero... and a lot cheaper than other aero spokes... at least in the US.

https://oddsandendos.safeshopper.com/20/83.htm?389

Rev.Chuck

They are barely aero, in my opinion. They will fit thru a standard drilled hub so the aero profile has to be pretty minimal, so the benefit has to be pretty minimal. The XL 14 is just as light, about the same price and won't have as much twist up issue when building them.

fmw

My Mike Garcia wheels use them. They are elliptical in cross section. I agree with Rev. Chuck. You can buy double butted spokes and have about the same thing.

rruff

They are 2.2x1.2mm (oval) in the middle section, smashed from 1.6mm round... should be fairly aero. From the aero wheel tests I've seen, having aero spokes definately helps reduce drag... and ovals are as good as blades. Round spokes simply create more drag because they are wider and don't have a tapered trailing edge.

Twist was not a problem at all when I used these spokes... it is very easy to see and correct for, unlike round spokes. I *did* oil the threads though...

Rev.Chuck

OK. First you ask if we have used these spokes. Then just a few hours later you tell us how great they are, listing a website both times. You have only made four posts and three of them talk about these spokes and mention the website. This looks a lot like advertising(The blue star means moderator) which is only allowed for supporting members and then only in the for sale sections, see the bar at the top of the page..

I am a pro builder that has been doing it for twelve years now. Built lots of aero blade wheels, used to do it for a big trishop that exported to Brazil. Yes there is a gain for bladed spokes under certain conditions, like long flat rides with no side wind. These were deep blade spokes that required slotting the hubs. There may be a slight gain from the AE15 when in a radial build to get the most benefit from the spokes trailing each others slipstream. In real world, I see no benefit from using them over a traditional butted spoke that will have a nicer spring to the ride and often cost less.

Sheldon Brown

I like 'em a lot, they're my favorite spoke for fancy wheels. I don't generally use 'em on the right rear though, DT 2.0/1.8 is my usual choice for that.

I particularly like that the oval profile permits you to be certan that there's no residual twist in the spokes...this is a chronic problem with round-section lightweight spokes.

Sheldon "Thumbs Up" Brown

rruff

Sorry about the confusion... I'm not advertising!

I did list that website and mention these spokes 2 weeks ago... not a few hours ago. Thanks for reminding me about that... I'd totally forgotten. I haven't posted here very much, but I've posted on other cycling forums several hundred times since last summer. If I was advertising, it would have to be for Mike Garcia (who I did not mention, but plenty of people here do), or Wheelsmith... and I doubt either of them really cares if anybody buys AE15s or not, since I'm sure the profits and margins are bigger on the XE14's... which appear to be the same except for 2.0mm ends, and cost over twice as much...

I used AE15s a long time ago when they were the only spokes of that type. I liked them... never broke any. After a 10 year layoff I just started cycling again last year... and noticed that CX-rays were all the rage and cost a fortune... but for some reason AE15s at 1/3 the price are relatively unknown. I bought some recently and respoked some cheap wheels I had, but I became curious to know if there was really some good *reason* why they weren't being used that much... like maybe they were junk. Hence, my post enquiring about other's experiences.

Numerous wind tunnel tests and field tests indicate that there is a small but significant benefit to aero oval spokes... important if you are competitive. If I had loads of money I'd buy CX-rays, which are widely touted as the strongest (in fatigue), lightest, most aero (yes, all three) spokes you can buy... but I'm not advertising for them either.

BTW, I used to be an engineer before I discovered freedom by sliding much lower on the socio-economic scale... and of course I know that doesn't mean I know anything about wheels or spokes...

rruff

Good to hear! And I bet you've built a lot of them, too... and for how many years?

So... your customers have been happy with them? No strange breakages or quality problems?

Rev.Chuck

If you want an aero spoke that does not require slotting the hub, then they are a good choice. And they are good spokes. But, I think that for most wheel builds a butted 14/15 will be more durable and give a better ride. I am not an engineer but as I understand it a cylinder is stronger than a flat bar of the same mass. The other issue is that aero spokes are a disadvantage in a cross wind. Even the narrow section of the AE will have noticeable "push".
IF I were building a racy wheel for someone, unless they wanted an aero spoke, I would use something like a revolution, to drop the weight and they are so thin the profile would have little negative effect either in the spoke slicing thru the air with the spinning wheel or from crosswind. They also have a nice give and offer a good ride.
In truth I don't build that many road wheels other than track any more, most to the stuff I do is for MTB or freeriders, and they are more concerned with durability.

rruff

That is true in bending... but I don't think even a side impact puts much of a bending load on a spoke. In the tension direction the oval section is actually stronger (for the same cross sectional area and mass) because of the additional cold working. Spokes seem to almost always break at the elbow though, and that is why 2.0/1.5mm spokes (like Revs) make sense for many applications. The middle section is resilient (and light), and the ends are strong. That is where AE15s are less than ideal, because they have 1.8mm ends.... but then Jobst Brandt claims to have 300,000 miles on some DT 1.8/1.6 spokes...

Do you do anything minimize or account for twist when you use Revolutions or similar spokes? I used 2.0/1.7 spokes on the drive side, and I was more worried about twist there than the AE15s because I couldn't *see* it. Maybe marking with a pen would be a good idea...

Rev.Chuck

I stress relieve the heck out of wheels when I build them and it keeps them from winding up.
A light guy can get away with a 1.8 j-hook. But Every low mileage failure I see is with the 1.8 j-hook spokes. I think the failure rate is not just because the spoke is thinner but because the hubs are drilled for a good fit with a 2.0 spoke. The spoke has less contact esp when the holes in the hub are not radiused.