cyclotoine

I picked this up off CL in my area because it was my size. I am not sure I will keep it. I have a friend who is looking for a frame for his single speed commuter which currently is a Hi-Tensile frame. We ride the same size. It's fate aside what do you think it is? The guy who sold it to me claimed he bought it in 1987 and that it was a rocky mountain and the shop gave him the stickers but never put them on. He didn't seem like he had a reason to lie and I am sure that he indeed had been riding this bike a long time.

The frame is Champion 2 Tange cro-mo, see lower sticker for more info, 26.8mm Sakae stem that says D-85 (not sure if that is year or model because all my aero 26.6 posts say S-81.
The bike is clearly not a 1987. I am pretty sure that by 84/85 tange stickers looked different.

components and Date list:
Cantilevers
Front: BR MC70 Model (can someone tell me what that is?) 1984
Rear: Shimano 600 1984
Hubs: Shimano 105 I think? (front model # HB F105) 1984
Levers: Shimano 600 1983
Cranks: Tourney (say Takagi on back) would be 1983 Via shimano code
FD: FD M700 ... 1984
RD replaced
Sr royal stem and Sakae Randnner bars.
Wolber model 58 super champion wheels, with wheelsmith sticker on them.

Again the guy claims to have bough it new in this config. he seemed a little clueless and didn't even notice the brake cantilevers were different in close to 20 years of owning it, or just played dumb.
Any info or leads would be appreciated. I know rockey mountain was selling road bikes under their name in 1985 so I guess i could be an import, but it seems odd that the parts are largely 84.

yes

I have a sakai grand touring 2500 frame. It has a mix of suntour and sakai parts that date to 1981, and the tubing is tange. It has suzue hubs and araya 27 inch steel wheels. I picked it up used, so I can't vouch for the original configuration. There was/is a green sticker on the seat tube below the top tube proclaiming the tange tubing. I think that there was another decal at the bottom of the seat tube, but I can't remember. I took most stickers off.

cyclotoine

so Sakai is the manuafacturer... that was my guess, I think I have to go examine that decale on the bottom of the seat tube again. Do you still have and use your frame? I now have two vintage toruing bikes and I think one should be set-up for toruing and used less and the other will be the commuter. I'd like to hear some opinions as to what people feel is a superior frame. This Tange Champion # 2 butted frame which has cro-mo forks or my Nishiki international which is almost certainly tange 900 seamed tubing, double butted frame, but I believe it has a hi-tensile fork. Both frames have the same braze on features and both has mild surface rust. One difference is the Nishiki's fork is all chrome underneath and has a cable stop mounted to the frame for the rear brakes while the Sakai frame has it attached by the seat pin.
cheers

T-Mar

The front cantilever is Deore XT. I agree with the probable year being 1984 or 1985. I have a couple Rocky Mountains, so if you post the serial number, I can check if the formats match.

I believe that the other poster may be confusing Sakai with Sekai, which I believe is the brand of his bicycle.

Tange 900 and #2 are virtually identical, excpet one is seamed and the other is seamless. Reagrdless, in the end, it comes down to builder, his skills and whether his concept of a good design matches yours. Whichever one feels the best to you, is the best.

cyclotoine

S.N. M4B12478

The 8 on the end appears different. The rest of the digits look post paint and the 8 looks like it could be pre paint as it is fainter.

the sticker on the bottom says:
Parker Process
MIKI SAKAI

T-Mar

Definitely not Rocky Mountain, based on the serial number formats on my bicycles. This same serial number format has been seen on one of the Centurion models submitted for my analysis. Assuming the standard interpretation for this format, the frame is from very early 1984, so that at least matches with the component dates.

As for the brand, it may well be Sekai. Their frames were manufactured by Yamaguchi and Miki and the bicycles assembled by Sakai Export. It looks like you may have one of the Miki frames. The Yamguchi Sekai have been seen with the same format, but sarting with a Y. Hopefully Yes will post his serial number. During the mid-1980s, the bicycles were being imported by Norco, which readily explains finding one in your region.

I do have specs for the 1985 Sekai model 2500. Ironically, it is spec'd with Tange 900!

cyclotoine

quite ironic, definately the MIKI type, I have one question. in my first post you can see the type of Tamge sticker on the bike. Was 1984 the last year that style was used before switching to the black, silver and red decals? All the 85 bikes I have the black, red, silver decals, but perhaps it depends on the tubset?

silversmith

I agree. Sakai only made one frame --and it certainly wasn't for touring.

T-Mar

One other possibility, which I forgot to mention in my previous post. Given that Norco was distributor for Nishiki and Sekai, it is most likely that their house brand frames came from Kawamura, Miki and/or Yamaguchi. The frame could have been intended for a Norco Magnum ST. Norco probably bought the frame without decals and applied them so as to increase Canadian content and lessen the import duty. Or it could have been a warranty replacement frame. These often did double or triple duty and would come without decals, except for the tubeset decal. Depending on what the customer needed, the distributor would apply the correct decals for the appropriate brand and/or model.

cyclotoine

It is possible, I have a 1985 magnum GT with Tange 900 and a different paint scheme. I assume Magnum GTs were black and silver like the one I have and I know that scheme does go back a bit. This frame appears quiet different though I will make a point to check the serial number on the Norco.

brauluver

I thought I'd tack my query on the end of this as it seems to be a related frame.

I recently bought this frame off E bay here in Australia for $16 on a whimsy and its been sitting in the shed for a week or so.I't's an old uncommon Aussie brand Bennet,and the model is Sebring.


It wasn't until I pulled out the fork and saw this on the steerer tube that I got excited.



This sticker is the only real evidence of it being a japanese frame



Searching with this as key words led me to this thread and the identical pic in the OP.
I believe that my frame is of the same origin as the others mentioned in here, just not sure of its Tange hierarchy.Main triangle is definitely Cro Mo as are forks.

This excerpt" The good news is that Tom Marshall (a.k.a. T-Mar), a Canadian engineer, racer and runner, with the help of Centurion owners from around North America and information from his own archives, figured out the serial number date codes for many Centurions. Here's what Tom has to say on the subject:

spoke

Japanese Centurions made between 1980-1990 use a serial number format WXYZZZZ where:

W = a letter, purpose uncertain, but probably indicates a manufacturer or Centurion;
X = a number, indicating the calendar year of manufacture;
Y = a letter, indicating the fortnight of manufacture (A = wk 1 & 2, B = wk 3 & 4, etc)
ZZZZ = four digit number, probably indicating frame number during fortnight of manufacture.

Example: N4E0283 indicates the 283 frame made during the period of weeks 9-10 in 1984."

From here https://www.sheldonbrown.com/centurion/index.html would suggest that its an 81 build.



The cable guides in the sticker/BB shell shot are stamped shimano if that helps.

Any one got any thoughts or info to share?I'm guessing that I've got myself a reasonable Quality Tange frame for a bargain.

Cheers Dave.

cyclotoine

Interesting. This is only the second time I have ever run across that decal and of course the first was the frame I had. Still never found out what it was. It went to Europe under a friend and was involved in an accident in Warsaw, Poland. I think it will remain there for it's dying days if it hasn't already been recycled or it's still in a police lock-up of some kind. sad end.

javal

My swedish bike/brand Mustang are built on a MikiSakai/Hanwa frame (the MikiSakai decal is identical with yours). The bike seems to hail from ca. -85 but the Shimano 600 parts and Tourney derailleur seems to be older. The Mustang wasnt a top end bike (talking about serious exercise/race)in those days, but considered a decent tourer.

brauluver

MMMMMM.... Interesting, looks like these frames were exported to a few other countries to be branded locally.
What is your serial # Javal, is it similar to mine and the Centurion ones?

javal

Hi again! Frame/serial nr is M1K52766 and my guess we´re talking about Tange Champion CrMo tubing. MIKI-Sakai/Hanwa obviously must be the producer. It wasnt unusual for various brands to differ their models with a variation of gear in order to attract more consumer groups. That usually explains why older gear is put on newer frames. I´m no expert, but this bike is same year or newer (1984-85) as a Crescent 316 I have, but the Crescent people built their bikes with the latest Shimano 600. This Mustang is a late catch, I havent touched it yet, still arguing with myself what I´ll do with it.

planyourfate

OP, there's a dude that works at a gas station here in town and rides a bike exactly like that. Only he's refurbed everything. It is an excellent steed.

brauluver

Looking at those pics, I'd say our frames are identical, same lugs and cable guides.
Serial #'s are similar as well, both with M1 prefix.
Thanks for the pics.

Dave.

javal

Here´s another Mustang. Should be a late 80´s (the Mustang-production were closed down 1989) when it was "fashion" with gearing on the stem. I know nothing of this bike = its for sale at the moment on Swedens biggest for-sale-site.

Bill Kapaun

The guy might have bought a "new" 3 year old bike back in 1987?

javal

my fault altogether; the shifters ARE indeed placed on tube (theres more than meets the eye sometimes). As I said...I know nothing about that Mustang!

Hummer

I know this is an old thread.

The OPs bicycle is probably a Sherpa model from Rocky Mountain Bicycle.


RMB Sherpa