Who's fault was it?
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Who's fault was it?
Commuting home today and was cruising down a hill in the bike lanewhen dude in front of me executes a last-second pass of a left-turning car using the bike lane on the right as passing real-estate.
Granted I was intending to pass both cars (part of the beauty of bike lanes, right!) but instead locked 'em up in an effort to avoid becoming part of his trunk. Haven't layed down a skid mark like that since I was a kid on my BMX bike!
So who was REALLY in the right? (putting all pro-commuting bias aside if possible)
Granted I was intending to pass both cars (part of the beauty of bike lanes, right!) but instead locked 'em up in an effort to avoid becoming part of his trunk. Haven't layed down a skid mark like that since I was a kid on my BMX bike!
So who was REALLY in the right? (putting all pro-commuting bias aside if possible)
#2
the commutor / tourer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: jacksonville fl
Posts: 626
Bikes: trek 6700 turned touring machine, giant TCR2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
sorry man, the situation you explained does not paint a very good picture. please try again.
__________________
"Ready to retire, just can't afford it yet!"
"Ready to retire, just can't afford it yet!"
#3
Sensible shoes.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: St. Paul,MN
Posts: 8,798
Bikes: A few.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Bike lanes are generally a protected AND separate right of way. If the other driver breached that lane he was in error. In any case your action wasn't terribly prudent and all road users have an obligation to avoid traffic collisions (by statute here).
#4
Weapons grade stupidity
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: D/FW
Posts: 334
Bikes: Univega Sportour & Cadillac RLE 1.8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Depends on your local laws, but most likely he was as, in most places, cars are not allowed in the bike lanes.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Don't see anyway this was your fault. It's bad enough when cars run you off the road but when they run you off of a bike path . . . geez!
#7
Two H's!!! TWO!!!!!
Originally Posted by wneumann
Depends on your local laws, but most likely he was as, in most places, cars are not allowed in the bike lanes.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 548
Bikes: Jamis Coda Sport '06
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think it's less a matter of being right than being alive. Think of it this way. If you were driving in a car that was in the right lane and a guy in the left lane swerved around a stopped left-turning vehicle you would have the right of way as he was merging into your lane.
Now, is it prudent to insist upon that right and have a very expensive collision? Perhaps not. That applies even more so when you don't have the benefit of a seatbelt, air bag, crash cage and crumple zones. Think of it as a semi cutting you off in your compact sports car. The results won't be pretty.
Sometimes it's not worth asserting your rights and driving/riding defensively.
Now, is it prudent to insist upon that right and have a very expensive collision? Perhaps not. That applies even more so when you don't have the benefit of a seatbelt, air bag, crash cage and crumple zones. Think of it as a semi cutting you off in your compact sports car. The results won't be pretty.
Sometimes it's not worth asserting your rights and driving/riding defensively.
#9
Commuter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 2,568
Bikes: 2006 Giant Cypress EX (7-speed internal hub)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Another one for totally the drivers' fault. Legally, that is. Some would say that you had no way of knowing he would violate your space, so how could you have done anything differently? But there's also the school of "expect anyone to do something stupid at any time, and be prepared for it".
I think I've gotten accustomed to be on the lookout for this possibility anytime I see a left-turner ahead of me with one or more cars between us. In fact, there's a certain road I pass every day where people often turn left and others pull to the right around them. Only difference is that in my case, it's a plain shoulder and not a bike lane, so I have even less reason to expect them to respect the white line. When I see a left-turner here, I automatically slow down a bit, keep my hands on the brakes, and watch the intervening cars to see which they are going to do, pull out or slow down. Even if it looks like they are slowing, be careful, they could change their minds at any time!
I don't have a lot of bike lanes where I ride, none on my regular commute, in fact, but from what others have said, I think I would trust drivers to respect bike lanes about as much as they respect shoulders, which is only when it is convenient for them.
I think I've gotten accustomed to be on the lookout for this possibility anytime I see a left-turner ahead of me with one or more cars between us. In fact, there's a certain road I pass every day where people often turn left and others pull to the right around them. Only difference is that in my case, it's a plain shoulder and not a bike lane, so I have even less reason to expect them to respect the white line. When I see a left-turner here, I automatically slow down a bit, keep my hands on the brakes, and watch the intervening cars to see which they are going to do, pull out or slow down. Even if it looks like they are slowing, be careful, they could change their minds at any time!
I don't have a lot of bike lanes where I ride, none on my regular commute, in fact, but from what others have said, I think I would trust drivers to respect bike lanes about as much as they respect shoulders, which is only when it is convenient for them.
#10
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think both Lurker1999 and JohnBrooking make excellent points. Better to be alive than right.
This one almost gobbled me up principally b/c the 2nd car was essentially stopped behind the left-turning car until the moment I approached from behind (again - in the bike lane). Almost as if he decided "hey - I'm tired of waiting here and I think there's room over there for me to squeeze by this guy"
whoo-boy.
This one almost gobbled me up principally b/c the 2nd car was essentially stopped behind the left-turning car until the moment I approached from behind (again - in the bike lane). Almost as if he decided "hey - I'm tired of waiting here and I think there's room over there for me to squeeze by this guy"
whoo-boy.
#11
Every lane is a bike lane
Originally Posted by JohnBrooking
I don't have a lot of bike lanes where I ride, none on my regular commute, in fact, but from what others have said, I think I would trust drivers to respect bike lanes about as much as they respect shoulders, which is only when it is convenient for them.
__________________
I am clinically insane. I am proud of it.
That is all.
I am clinically insane. I am proud of it.
That is all.
#12
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398
Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1549 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times
in
504 Posts
You have to be ready for anything, that's for sure. I had a tractor trailer dump truck pull out of the left lane to go around stopped traffic just as I was flying up the right lane at 20 something MPH. He was in the wrong but I certainly made sure to avoid it!
#13
Mr. Maximan1
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Anaheim and Fullerton (SoCal)
Posts: 1,300
Bikes: Puch Superleicht, Nishiki moutain project, Trek 2300 carbon composite
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ColorChange
I agree, the truck driver cut you off in the bike lane no less. That is why I just got my new Zound horn.
__________________
www.olgapetrovart.com
www.olgapetrovart.com
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by carpjam
Haven't layed down a skid mark like that since I was a kid on my BMX bike!
Two suggestions:
1. Be careful with "closing speed." I learned this motorcycling. If you're passing cars more than, say, 5-10mph than they are moving, you won't have the reaction time to get out of their way when (not if) a bonehead pulls out to take your lane. Your closing speed is too high. You will avoid many accidents in life following this rule.
2. Use your front brake next time, not your rear. Practice using it until that's all you use. Locking the rear and laying down a skid mark, while fun, isn't nearly the fastest way to stop. You're lucky you missed him.
#15
Neat - w/ ice on the side
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Big Ring. Little Cog.
Posts: 1,200
Bikes: 2005 Dahon Speed TR, 2006 Dahon Mu SL, 2000 GT XiZang, 1999ish Rock Lobster, 2007 Dean Animas CTI
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by carpjam
I think both Lurker1999 and JohnBrooking make excellent points. Better to be alive than right.
This one almost gobbled me up principally b/c the 2nd car was essentially stopped behind the left-turning car until the moment I approached from behind (again - in the bike lane). Almost as if he decided "hey - I'm tired of waiting here and I think there's room over there for me to squeeze by this guy"
whoo-boy.
This one almost gobbled me up principally b/c the 2nd car was essentially stopped behind the left-turning car until the moment I approached from behind (again - in the bike lane). Almost as if he decided "hey - I'm tired of waiting here and I think there's room over there for me to squeeze by this guy"
whoo-boy.
__________________
Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more. Bark less.
Change you can believe in - Bigfoot Nessie 08
Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more. Bark less.
Change you can believe in - Bigfoot Nessie 08
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Does it really matter who was right? The trick (imo) is learn your route & its "issues" & to make it home in one piece. It definetly sounds like a trouble spot that needs extra attention. You may need to speed up/slow down, take the lane, avoid the area, etc.... If the streets are wet - it will be more of a challenge.
Good luck.
Good luck.
#17
domestique
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: off the back
Posts: 2,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Short answer: No accident. Nobody "at fault".
Long answer: I don't really know. I suspect it has something to do with the official status of your bike lane. Does it have bike lane signs and markings on the pavement? Most of the bike lanes I ride in don't. I have this suspicion that they are officially just the shoulder of the road. That way they can run right turn lanes through them and not feel like they've done the bicyclist a disservice. So, if your bike lane is indeed a bike lane, I think the cars should stay out. If it is just a paved shoulder on the right side of the white line, who knows. Probably both of you aren't officially supposed to be there.
Long answer: I don't really know. I suspect it has something to do with the official status of your bike lane. Does it have bike lane signs and markings on the pavement? Most of the bike lanes I ride in don't. I have this suspicion that they are officially just the shoulder of the road. That way they can run right turn lanes through them and not feel like they've done the bicyclist a disservice. So, if your bike lane is indeed a bike lane, I think the cars should stay out. If it is just a paved shoulder on the right side of the white line, who knows. Probably both of you aren't officially supposed to be there.
#18
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In general, don't pass on the right.
But if you are going to pass on the right, do it with extreme care.
If you're doing it from a bike lane, be doubly careful. Many drivers will not expect you to be there and use that space like any other solid stripe demarcated pavement: rarely, but whenever it's useful.
For those of you who suggest passing on the left... uh, no, cuz the first guy was turning left.
But if you are going to pass on the right, do it with extreme care.
If you're doing it from a bike lane, be doubly careful. Many drivers will not expect you to be there and use that space like any other solid stripe demarcated pavement: rarely, but whenever it's useful.
For those of you who suggest passing on the left... uh, no, cuz the first guy was turning left.
#19
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
many of the bike lanes in Portland, OR are indeed well-marked, maintained and obvious bike lanes. Now if they could just go about installing that force-field. . . . .
Ducati - your point about closing speed is an excellent one ("If you're passing cars more than, say, 5-10mph than they are moving, you won't have the reaction time to get out of their way"). Great to keep in mind.
Ducati - your point about closing speed is an excellent one ("If you're passing cars more than, say, 5-10mph than they are moving, you won't have the reaction time to get out of their way"). Great to keep in mind.
#20
Conservative Hippie
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wakulla Co. FL
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is one of the inherently bad things about all bike lanes. Some drivers see them as only being there for their convience.
It's nearly always safer to pass on the left, but not in this case because of the left turning driver.
If this had resulted in a collision, the fault would have be shared, because of passing on the right. The safest thing to do would have been take the lane and wait with the rest of traffic.
It's nearly always safer to pass on the left, but not in this case because of the left turning driver.
If this had resulted in a collision, the fault would have be shared, because of passing on the right. The safest thing to do would have been take the lane and wait with the rest of traffic.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The second driver is clearly at fault because he broke rule number one, which applies at all times for both cars and bicycles: he put another user of the road in danger by making a sudden, reckless move.
It's clear he wasn't paying attention and didn't see you. But as others have said, as a cyclist you have to assume that the cagers don't see you, even if you are covered head to toe with so many blinking LED's that you could land the space shuttle single-handed. I try to be hyper-alert at all times for potential situations like that developing in front of me.
It's clear he wasn't paying attention and didn't see you. But as others have said, as a cyclist you have to assume that the cagers don't see you, even if you are covered head to toe with so many blinking LED's that you could land the space shuttle single-handed. I try to be hyper-alert at all times for potential situations like that developing in front of me.
#22
Cat None
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,508
Bikes: LOOK KG 461, LeMond Zurich, Giant Talon 29er 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The cager was in the wrong. Cars are not supposed to use the bike lane to go around other cars.
#23
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Legally has been answered (unsafe lane change, perhaps illegal use of BL, etc.)
Defensively it has been answered too (unsafe passing slow/stopped vehicles on right)
One comment I wanted to add is that when driving a car this situation is often encountered as well. For example driving in the right lane of a two same direction lane road. You notice up ahead a car slowing to make a left turn (with no LT lane). The cars behind in left lane then start slowing to. Being in the right lane you have the option to keep at your cruising speed, or also to begin slowing and preparing for a quick stop. This is defensive driving as you know that of the several drivers being slowed by the LTing vehicle, one or two of them will decide to make a last second merge into right lane to avoid delay. Because it is a quick decision, they will often not check properly for a safe merge and even if they see a car in the right lane, often will choose to merge anyway to fit a quick gap, forcing the driver in the right lane to slow for them.
Similar situations occur in freeway driving when encountering slow vehicles and also in cities for passing stopping busses.
Al
Defensively it has been answered too (unsafe passing slow/stopped vehicles on right)
One comment I wanted to add is that when driving a car this situation is often encountered as well. For example driving in the right lane of a two same direction lane road. You notice up ahead a car slowing to make a left turn (with no LT lane). The cars behind in left lane then start slowing to. Being in the right lane you have the option to keep at your cruising speed, or also to begin slowing and preparing for a quick stop. This is defensive driving as you know that of the several drivers being slowed by the LTing vehicle, one or two of them will decide to make a last second merge into right lane to avoid delay. Because it is a quick decision, they will often not check properly for a safe merge and even if they see a car in the right lane, often will choose to merge anyway to fit a quick gap, forcing the driver in the right lane to slow for them.
Similar situations occur in freeway driving when encountering slow vehicles and also in cities for passing stopping busses.
Al
#24
Happy old man
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West coast of New England
Posts: 621
Bikes: Trek 4500 mountain bike, Trek 7500fx disk, and Trek 2200 Road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It is ALWAYS the other persons fault
__________________
https://www.thegmbc.com/
https://www.gmaa.net/
In New England we have nine months of winter and three months of damned poor sledding.
https://www.thegmbc.com/
https://www.gmaa.net/
In New England we have nine months of winter and three months of damned poor sledding.