View Poll Results: Poll on my next bike
Santana Team Niobium
4
17.39%
Co-Motion Speedster
18
78.26%
'99 Santana Team Titanium
1
4.35%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: Help me decide on a bike
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Poll: Help me decide on a bike
I don't have the luxury of testing a bike before I buy, so I am asking for a poll, what would you buy. We ride a Trek T100 so any of these are a quantum leap. Similar amounts of money $ 5000-6000 range, the '99 Team TI at the bottom of the range, The Team Ni at the top.
- Santana Team Niobium
- Co-Motion Speedster
- '99 Santana Team Titanium
#2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Oops, forgot to mention all three have S&S couplings, otherwise you will question the price range
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
And the travel cases!
#4
Co-Mo mojo
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 170
Bikes: 06/07 Co-Mo Speedster, Cannondale Synapse, SR 800, Specialized Hard Rock
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
I don't have the luxury of testing a bike before I buy
#5
hors category
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,231
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
Similar amounts of money $ 5000-6000 range, the '99 Team TI at the bottom of the range, The Team Ni at the top.
What are the model years of the other tandems as there's no way a new Speedster is any where close to the price of a new Niobium, with or without couplers. Moreover, assuming none of these are new except for perhaps the Speedster, what type of equipment do the two Santana tandems have, and what kind of shape are they in?
#6
Cyclist
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
You know, folks say "test ride before you buy" all the time on this forum and Tandem@Hobbes... but it's not only darned difficult for most teams to do, but also -- IMO -- an over-rated exercise. I and my partners have test-ridden _none_ of the six tandems we've owned over the past thirty years, yet we've been happy with all of them. Three of the six were custom bikes, which could not be test ridden. In a custom situation, you have to trust the builder and/or dealer to guide you to the correct geometry and configuration for your team's skills and needs. And, really, a stock bike is not that much different: As long as the bike fits you, you can trust a mainstream builder to have gotten it close enough to "right." All of the tandems that Xanti cites are general purpose bikes. With a little tweaking (gearing, saddles, 'bars, rider position), any would work for his team. The handling differences are subtle and unlikely to make or break the team's long-term satisfaction. With that in mind and assuming that they all are the correct frame size for his team, I voted for the Co-Motion. It uses conventional rear hub spacing and a standard rear BB, front derailleur clamp, headset, fork and h'bar stem -- all of which will make tweaking and upgrading that much easier. Now, the unique-to-Santana features may influence Xanti in the other direction, but no amount of test riding would change that as they are NOT things that the average team is likely to feel on a test ride (though I suppose a discriminating stoker might feel the increased Santana pedal width -- if he or she were attuned to it).
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
1 Post
I won't vote because I do not have nearly enough tandem experience to suggest a bike. I would suggest taht you choose one that has the better support in Argentina. You have a number of posts expressing frustration at parts availability in your locale. My guess is the Co-Motion would be a little easier to find parts for than the Santana.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 11,016
Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times
in
11 Posts
Co-Mo is more mainstream and has none of the idosyncracies that Santana espouses; as stated, upgrading/swapping parts can be easier.
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Just to answer some of your questions.
Support in Argentina is irrelevant, either the Santana or the Co-Motion will be the only ones of their kind here, so I'm not considering it much, will have to manage with LBS and get parts in the US when I travel. It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 c, so I could find rims and tires, but 26" on an S&S coupled bike for touring/road is just not out there, I'd end up looking for a custom.
Try before you buy would me nice but not feasible, I buy now and pick up in May when I am scheduled to travel.
Like I say, coming from a Trek T100 all of these bikes will be big improvements, and I am not qulified to discriminate on the subtle points. My road bike is a Schwinn Fastback Comp, carbon fork and stays, Shimano 105. Ride maybe 5000 km/year on the two bikes. Look forward to supported and unsupported tandem trips.
TGeek: Both Co-Mo and Team Niobium are new stock bikes prety much as described in the manufacturers websites. Co-mo would be 07, Not sure if Team Ni 06 or 07.
Support in Argentina is irrelevant, either the Santana or the Co-Motion will be the only ones of their kind here, so I'm not considering it much, will have to manage with LBS and get parts in the US when I travel. It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 c, so I could find rims and tires, but 26" on an S&S coupled bike for touring/road is just not out there, I'd end up looking for a custom.
Try before you buy would me nice but not feasible, I buy now and pick up in May when I am scheduled to travel.
Like I say, coming from a Trek T100 all of these bikes will be big improvements, and I am not qulified to discriminate on the subtle points. My road bike is a Schwinn Fastback Comp, carbon fork and stays, Shimano 105. Ride maybe 5000 km/year on the two bikes. Look forward to supported and unsupported tandem trips.
TGeek: Both Co-Mo and Team Niobium are new stock bikes prety much as described in the manufacturers websites. Co-mo would be 07, Not sure if Team Ni 06 or 07.
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TandemGeek
I'm sorry, but you haven't provided nearly enough information to go on.
what type of equipment do the two Santana tandems have, and what kind of shape are they in?
what type of equipment do the two Santana tandems have, and what kind of shape are they in?
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by zonatandem
Co-Motion Mocha offers 26" wheels and S&S option for about $4,770 in the USA.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 c, so I could find rims and tires, but 26" on an S&S coupled bike for touring/road is just not out there, I'd end up looking for a custom.
#14
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,302
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 724 Times
in
371 Posts
I've been going through the Co Motion vs Santana decision. What I keep hearing is that Co Motions are very responsive, and that people that ride agressively tend to like them. Kinda like Co Motion as Sports Car, Santana as luxury SUV. The couple of comments you make regarding Performance, and not liking some of the tradeoffs of the Trek, make me think that a Co Motion might be more what you're looking for.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 11,016
Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times
in
11 Posts
. . . .continuing that post . . . (sorry for the glitch!)
Both the daVinci and Co-Mo Mocha would fit the bill, in our estimation. Both offer drop bars, 26" wheels, and S&S options.
daVinci has independent coasting, a feature that may, or may not, appeal to your team. daV uses 4 cogs instead of 3 chainrings and through the use of a 'doubler' and 3 bottom brackets achieves more gears than Co-Mo. A possible advantage touring in very hilly terrain.
Frames from either company are extremely well built/finished and offer very good componentry and will lend themselves easily to touring, on-road or off-road (no single track). By swapping out smooth tires to a bit more agressive tires, pavement/off-pavement riding should be easy.
Either company will do some part swapping (drop/flat bars, appropriate shifters, etc) for a slight charge.
Have ridden the daV and Co-Mo (although not in the S&S version).
Perhaps some other Mocha or daVinci owners will chime in?
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Both the daVinci and Co-Mo Mocha would fit the bill, in our estimation. Both offer drop bars, 26" wheels, and S&S options.
daVinci has independent coasting, a feature that may, or may not, appeal to your team. daV uses 4 cogs instead of 3 chainrings and through the use of a 'doubler' and 3 bottom brackets achieves more gears than Co-Mo. A possible advantage touring in very hilly terrain.
Frames from either company are extremely well built/finished and offer very good componentry and will lend themselves easily to touring, on-road or off-road (no single track). By swapping out smooth tires to a bit more agressive tires, pavement/off-pavement riding should be easy.
Either company will do some part swapping (drop/flat bars, appropriate shifters, etc) for a slight charge.
Have ridden the daV and Co-Mo (although not in the S&S version).
Perhaps some other Mocha or daVinci owners will chime in?
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by zonatandem
daVinci has independent coasting, a feature that may, or may not, appeal to your team. daV uses 4 cogs instead of 3 chainrings and through the use of a 'doubler' and 3 bottom brackets achieves more gears than Co-Mo. A possible advantage touring in very hilly terrain.
The gearing has quite a range on it. I don't appreciate it as much as I could though because 1) I have not frequently needed the highs and lows 2) I do not have experience on the traditional tandem gearing setups. I rarely use my 32 that I will probably mount a 12-27.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Houston B.C.
Posts: 271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
We just bought a da Vinci with 26 inch wheels and S&S couplers, I am not as experienced as Zonotandem but I sure am happy, the gear range is great if you want a bike that can handle loaded touring or go fast empty. I think it is a good all around bike, ours has drop bars but I would have no hesitation touring gravel roads with it. Give them a look we found Todd a great man to deal with, answered all our questions did all the stuff we asked and gave us good information. We thought we would buy a Santana but after going to California and talking with them and watching the action at the shop both on the phone and in person my stoker and I thought we should look elsewhere. I agree that its good to test ride but I think that your right, given that its the correct size you should be fine. Through this site you can find out how each rides in comparison to each other.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Grand Prairie, TX
Posts: 702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Given a team weight in the 310-330 lb (yours from previous posts) range I would be inclined to consider a stiffer-than-steel aluminum frameset, and your stoker's inseam of 29" (?) suggests an overall height of 5'2"-5'4", perhaps best fit to the stoker compartment with bottom bracket spacing of 30-31". How about paying the custom frame dimension surcharge and/or getting an aluminum tandem from your preferred builder?
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Central Maine
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
A custom builder would generally choose tubesets according to a teams weight and intended use of the bike. A steel bike can be made as stiff as any aluminum bike out there.
glenn
glenn
#22
hors category
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,231
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
Originally Posted by Xanti Andia
It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 cso I could find rims and tires, but 26".[snip]
Look forward to supported and unsupported tandem trips.[snip]
Both Co-Mo and Team Niobium are new stock bikes prety much as described in the manufacturers websites. Co-mo would be 07, Not sure if Team Ni 06 or 07. [snip]
Santana Team Ti-700 with S&S couplers. ... Formula hydraulic rear disk brake. Plus: Santana SafeCase with pads, crank shorteners (for small stoker), SPD pedals.[snip]
Look forward to supported and unsupported tandem trips.[snip]
Both Co-Mo and Team Niobium are new stock bikes prety much as described in the manufacturers websites. Co-mo would be 07, Not sure if Team Ni 06 or 07. [snip]
Santana Team Ti-700 with S&S couplers. ... Formula hydraulic rear disk brake. Plus: Santana SafeCase with pads, crank shorteners (for small stoker), SPD pedals.[snip]
If someone was willing to sell you a new S&S Santana Team Niobium for the same money as a new S&S Co-Motion Speedster, I'd buy the Niobium, then I'd re-sell it for a profit and pocket a few bucks. My gut tells me that something's just not quite right with those cost numbers as an '07 Team Niobium with new cases would have an MSRP around $8k, i.e., a base model Team Niobium without couplers is ~$6,000 + $1,200 for couplers, and then add your cases. Now, if a dealer was selling you one at HIS cost, that's another story.
As for the Ti, good frame material for a travel tandem but you'd need to get rid of the Formula rear disc brake and replace it with something that will work better for world travel, like cantilever rim brakes and possibly a supplemental Avid 203mm rear disc. If it was me, I'd also sell the SafeCase and get a smaller hardcase + one softcase to make travel just a bit easier. The SafeCase is a neat concept developed before 911 that would usually go unnoticed as it was just a bit over the maximum size for checked luggage and would come in just under the 75# weight limit. As it is today, it's just a big heavy case that will carry your tandem and that's it. No room for helmets, shoes, racks, panniers or anything else that could be more easily accommodated in a pair of S&S cases that each came in under the 50# limit.
As for other comments about Santana's unique stuff, you answered those questions the way that I would have. 145mm vs 160mm rear hubs aren't commonly in stock in remote places and sealed headsets aren't problematic, nor are bottom brackets.
However, all of that said, what you've outlined for your requirements and druthers in your subsequent posts does suggest that the right tandem something along the lines mentioned by zonatandem... the 26" Mocha Co-Pilot. To me, a 26" model sounds like the ideal tandem for what you've described and meets your budget. As for taking a performance hit by not going with 700c, poppycock. That's just another myth; spec the right gearing and the differences in performance vs. 700c is negligible. We and most other "roadies" ride 700c because that's what has become popular, what consumers have come to expect, and what the manufactures logically offer. For an "uber tandem" that will be used throughout the world, 26" makes far more sense for the very reasons you mention: rims and tires are easy to come by so long as you stick with the more popular rim width and spoking.
https://www.co-motion.com/Mocha.html
Last edited by TandemGeek; 02-16-07 at 06:31 AM.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 11,016
Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times
in
11 Posts
Seems like your search will be broading out a bit from your original quest . . .
Picking between Co-Mocha and daVinci would be logical. Either tandem would be up to the task of on/off-pavement + loaded touring/club riding. The primary differences is in gearing and independent coasting (which can be 'disabled' as masiman stated). Either Todd at daV or Dwan/Elayne at Co-Mo will be glad to explain things further, if need be.
Decisions, decisions . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Picking between Co-Mocha and daVinci would be logical. Either tandem would be up to the task of on/off-pavement + loaded touring/club riding. The primary differences is in gearing and independent coasting (which can be 'disabled' as masiman stated). Either Todd at daV or Dwan/Elayne at Co-Mo will be glad to explain things further, if need be.
Decisions, decisions . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't know how is it in Argentina but in Mexico we did not have any problems finding 700 tubes and tires even in the smallest of towns. Tandem specific rims or wheel sets is another mater... But how hard is it to get on the internet and order parts from american distributors? Maybe it is harder for Argentina since it is not part of NAFTA.
You may have problems getting a specific brand/model of tire, but something that will get you out of a pinch should not be a problem.
There is a lot of road bikes being sold in Mexico. American brands... made in China.
You may have problems getting a specific brand/model of tire, but something that will get you out of a pinch should not be a problem.
There is a lot of road bikes being sold in Mexico. American brands... made in China.
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 378
Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha, Trek T100, Schwinn Fastback Comp, Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cornucopia72
I don't know how is it in Argentina but in Mexico we did not have any problems finding 700 tubes and tires even in the smallest of towns. Tandem specific rims or wheel sets is another mater... But how hard is it to get on the internet and order parts from american distributors? Maybe it is harder for Argentina since it is not part of NAFTA.
You may have problems getting a specific brand/model of tire, but something that will get you out of a pinch should not be a problem.
There is a lot of road bikes being sold in Mexico. American brands... made in China.
You may have problems getting a specific brand/model of tire, but something that will get you out of a pinch should not be a problem.
There is a lot of road bikes being sold in Mexico. American brands... made in China.