Why does VC exist anyhow?
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Why does VC exist anyhow?
This is a serious question. I already have my suspicions that the whole buzz term was created just to sell books. But from what I am gather, VC is nothing more than a *suggested* way to ride a bike while on the streets that will *likely* be safer for the cyclist. Okay, fine, I get it.
But why have a whole new culture about it? Mr. Forester himself admits to riding on the sidewalks. VC zealots will and do use seperated/segregated facilities. I've read here from the VC folks (at least one) that they have no problem with cutting thru a parking lot as a shortcut, which is illegal in alot of areas. So what is the point of the whole label and culture? Couldn't it just be rolled up into one big panphlet about riding a bike in general without having to have it's own buzz label?
This is just silly, and it why I am being outspoken in the VC threads. Not because I oppose riding a bicycle in the streets safely and legally, but because I oppose the fact that people have to label it. It's no different than kids in highschool who feel they need to belong to some sort of social cliche with a title in order to fit in (preppy, grunge, jock, etc etc). Are we not adults here (most of us anyways)? Do we really NEED someone to put a label on something like this?
silly, just silly
[EDIT]
Why can't VC zealots face the facts that sometimes it is safer, funner, etc to ride on the shoulder, or to use the shoulder to thwart a possible incident with a motorist instead of standing on the pedals and swerving and dancing like a monkey with an organ griner? Why is it so hard for some of them to accept that no matter what, your safety out there depends just as much on the other person as it does you? Why can't we just ride a damned bike instead of having to go thru all of this garbage?
But why have a whole new culture about it? Mr. Forester himself admits to riding on the sidewalks. VC zealots will and do use seperated/segregated facilities. I've read here from the VC folks (at least one) that they have no problem with cutting thru a parking lot as a shortcut, which is illegal in alot of areas. So what is the point of the whole label and culture? Couldn't it just be rolled up into one big panphlet about riding a bike in general without having to have it's own buzz label?
This is just silly, and it why I am being outspoken in the VC threads. Not because I oppose riding a bicycle in the streets safely and legally, but because I oppose the fact that people have to label it. It's no different than kids in highschool who feel they need to belong to some sort of social cliche with a title in order to fit in (preppy, grunge, jock, etc etc). Are we not adults here (most of us anyways)? Do we really NEED someone to put a label on something like this?
silly, just silly
[EDIT]
Why can't VC zealots face the facts that sometimes it is safer, funner, etc to ride on the shoulder, or to use the shoulder to thwart a possible incident with a motorist instead of standing on the pedals and swerving and dancing like a monkey with an organ griner? Why is it so hard for some of them to accept that no matter what, your safety out there depends just as much on the other person as it does you? Why can't we just ride a damned bike instead of having to go thru all of this garbage?
Last edited by pj7; 03-21-07 at 04:30 PM.
#2
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I think it was Steve Goodridge who said it best [paraphrased, probably terribly, Steve feel free to post your real response here], the term vehicular cycling was created to seperate the style of cycling in traffic as a vehicle driver from cycling in all the other ways one might cycle in traffic. Keep in mind, plenty people still believe that cyclists should act like pedestrians and ride against traffic on the roads. That could be labeled "riding a bicycle in traffic" but it's not vehicular cycling.
Starting to make more sense now?
Starting to make more sense now?
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Originally Posted by pj7
This is a serious question. I already have my suspicions that the whole buzz term was created just to sell books. But from what I am gather, VC is nothing more than a *suggested* way to ride a bike while on the streets that will *likely* be safer for the cyclist. Okay, fine, I get it.
But why have a whole new culture about it? Mr. Forester himself admits to riding on the sidewalks. VC zealots will and do use seperated/segregated facilities. I've read here from the VC folks (at least one) that they have no problem with cutting thru a parking lot as a shortcut, which is illegal in alot of areas. So what is the point of the whole label and culture? Couldn't it just be rolled up into one big panphlet about riding a bike in general without having to have it's own buzz label?
This is just silly, and it why I am being outspoken in the VC threads. Not because I oppose riding a bicycle in the streets safely and legally, but because I oppose the fact that people have to label it. It's no different than kids in highschool who feel they need to belong to some sort of social cliche with a title in order to fit in (preppy, grunge, jock, etc etc). Are we not adults here (most of us anyways)? Do we really NEED someone to put a label on something like this?
silly, just silly
But why have a whole new culture about it? Mr. Forester himself admits to riding on the sidewalks. VC zealots will and do use seperated/segregated facilities. I've read here from the VC folks (at least one) that they have no problem with cutting thru a parking lot as a shortcut, which is illegal in alot of areas. So what is the point of the whole label and culture? Couldn't it just be rolled up into one big panphlet about riding a bike in general without having to have it's own buzz label?
This is just silly, and it why I am being outspoken in the VC threads. Not because I oppose riding a bicycle in the streets safely and legally, but because I oppose the fact that people have to label it. It's no different than kids in highschool who feel they need to belong to some sort of social cliche with a title in order to fit in (preppy, grunge, jock, etc etc). Are we not adults here (most of us anyways)? Do we really NEED someone to put a label on something like this?
silly, just silly
With respect to why the concept needs a label, it's not much different from why Prince's attempt to shed his label (name) was not very effective.
If a concept has value, and I believe this one does, then it's very helpful to be able to refer to it by name. That's all.
[EDIT]
Why can't VC zealots face the facts that sometimes it is safer, funner, etc to ride on the shoulder, or to use the shoulder to thwart a possible incident with a motorist instead of standing on the pedals and swerving and dancing like a monkey with an organ griner? Why is it so hard for some of them to accept that no matter what, your safety out there depends just as much on the other person as it does you? Why can't we just ride a damned bike instead of having to go thru all of this garbage?
Why can't VC zealots face the facts that sometimes it is safer, funner, etc to ride on the shoulder, or to use the shoulder to thwart a possible incident with a motorist instead of standing on the pedals and swerving and dancing like a monkey with an organ griner? Why is it so hard for some of them to accept that no matter what, your safety out there depends just as much on the other person as it does you? Why can't we just ride a damned bike instead of having to go thru all of this garbage?
EDIT: For definitions for what I mean by "Advanced VC", "Basic VC" and "Strict VC", please see the OP of the Some VC definitions thread.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
I think it was Steve Goodridge who said it best [paraphrased, probably terribly, Steve feel free to post your real response here], the term vehicular cycling was created to seperate the style of cycling in traffic as a vehicle driver from cycling in all the other ways one might cycle in traffic. Keep in mind, plenty people still believe that cyclists should act like pedestrians and ride against traffic on the roads. That could be labeled "riding a bicycle in traffic" but it's not vehicular cycling.
Starting to make more sense now?
Starting to make more sense now?
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+1.
I'm a cyclist. I ride with mannerisms which help keep me alive and, at the very least, able to ride more.
Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it any different, to quote my favorite author.
I'm a cyclist. I ride with mannerisms which help keep me alive and, at the very least, able to ride more.
Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it any different, to quote my favorite author.
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Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
700-800 cyclists are killed each year in the U.S. while bike riding. Countless others are seriously injured while bike riding. Trying to reduce those numbers is, ultimately, what the concept know as VC is about, particularly with respect to the fact that probably more than half were violating Basic VC rules (riding on the wrong side of the road, swerving in front of traffic without yielding, riding at night without lights, entering intersections from sidewalks at relative-to-peds high speeds without yielding, etc.), and most of the other half was not engaged in Advanced VC best practices (riding further left to be visible, predictable and with improved sight lines and safety buffer zones rather than too close to the right, particularly at ALL intersection approaches, going straight at intersections and any place where there is a potential conflict with right turning or right tending traffic without looking back, etc.).
With respect to why the concept needs a label, it's not much different from why Prince's attempt to shed his label (name) was not very effective.
If a concept has value, and I believe this one does, then it's very helpful to be able to refer to it by name. That's all.
What you refer to above as "VC zealots" sounds like "Strict VC zealots". I don't know of any of those. Do you?
EDIT: For definitions for what I mean by "Advanced VC", "Basic VC" and "Strict VC", please see the OP of the Some VC definitions thread.
With respect to why the concept needs a label, it's not much different from why Prince's attempt to shed his label (name) was not very effective.
If a concept has value, and I believe this one does, then it's very helpful to be able to refer to it by name. That's all.
What you refer to above as "VC zealots" sounds like "Strict VC zealots". I don't know of any of those. Do you?
EDIT: For definitions for what I mean by "Advanced VC", "Basic VC" and "Strict VC", please see the OP of the Some VC definitions thread.
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Originally Posted by pj7
And in every place I know of, riding a bike on the road, against traffic, is illegal. So that would be cycling illegaly. Do those people have UC (Unvehicular Cycling) zealots? Doubt it. Maybe I should start it, write a book, and make some bank.
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Originally Posted by pj7
wait.. what? I didn't say anything about strict anything.
Look at it again (my emphasis):
Why can't VC zealots face the facts that sometimes it is safer, funner, etc to ride on the shoulder, or to use the shoulder to thwart a possible incident with a motorist instead of standing on the pedals and swerving and dancing like a monkey with an organ griner? Why is it so hard for some of them to accept that no matter what, your safety out there depends just as much on the other person as it does you? Why can't we just ride a damned bike instead of having to go thru all of this garbage?
#9
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Originally Posted by pj7
And in every place I know of, riding a bike on the road, against traffic, is illegal. So that would be cycling illegaly. Do those people have UC (Unvehicular Cycling) zealots? Doubt it. Maybe I should start it, write a book, and make some bank.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Do you think it's universally known that a cyclist can legally use a left turn lane to make a left turn?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Yes, you didn't use the term "strict". but the implied meaning of "VC zealots" in the context of what you wrote is "strict VC".
Look at it again (my emphasis):
The highlighted portions would only apply to a zealot of Strict VC (one who believes that non-VC cycling is never acceptable).
Look at it again (my emphasis):
The highlighted portions would only apply to a zealot of Strict VC (one who believes that non-VC cycling is never acceptable).
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
And in every place I know of, very many illegal cycling practices are accepted. A couple of weeks ago I saw a cyclist riding on the wrong side of the road (which had angled curb parking, by the way) against traffic, in front of a police station, with a police car driving by. No one even blinked.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
So it sounds like you believe that it's universally known that it's illegal to cycle against traffic. Let's assume that's true. Do you think it's universally known that a cyclist can legally use a left turn lane to make a left turn?
Just like I don't believe everyone knows that in Winchester Kentucky it is illegal to walk down main Street with an ice cream cone in your pocket.
#14
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Originally Posted by CTAC
Should we assume that motorists ever bother opening the driver handbook?
#15
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Do you think it's universally known that a cyclist can legally use a left turn lane to make a left turn?
Originally Posted by pj7
No, I don't believe that at all.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
I would assume that the vast majority either never have or did so long ago that they've forgotten most of what's in there that they don't experience on a regular basis.
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Originally Posted by pj7
didn't you have the tag "Avid VC Zealot" attached to your name at one time? Did that mean that YOU were advocating STRICT VC?
If so then you had better ammend your definitions thread because you said you don't know of any of them. If not, then what is your point here?
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-21-07 at 05:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by pj7
silly, just silly
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Originally Posted by pj7
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Originally Posted by pj7
And in every place I know of, riding a bike on the road, against traffic, is illegal. So that would be cycling illegaly. Do those people have UC (Unvehicular Cycling) zealots? Doubt it. Maybe I should start it, write a book, and make some bank.
So I was pointing out why the concept/term is needed even though these behaviors are illegal: because illegal cycling is accepted as normal in our culture, it is not understood to be as unsafe and ineffective as it is. Having a concept/term like vehicular cycling helps convey this. At least with some people...
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
No, I have never been an advocate of STRICT VC, and never will be.
My point here is you're writing about a perspective (which I happen to call strict VC) which no one actually holds, yet you seem to think someone does.
My point here is you're writing about a perspective (which I happen to call strict VC) which no one actually holds, yet you seem to think someone does.
silly, just silly
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
So I was pointing out why the concept/term is needed even though these behaviors are illegal: because illegal cycling is accepted as normal in our culture, it is not understood to be as unsafe and ineffective as it is. Having a concept/term like vehicular cycling helps convey this. At least with some people...
Wouldn't it be easier to say to someone "hey, it's illegal to do that" than to say "you should be riding VC"? The former made the point clear, where as the latter would require an explaination that would end in a comment like "go buy this and that book to see".
Tell me HH, have you ever made money of promoting VC in ANY way? Do you plan on making money off it in ANY way? <-- serious question
#22
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Originally Posted by pj7
What are you trying to morph here? Where di I use "persepctive" of strict VC here, you did that my friend. You also made reference to people calling themselves "VC Zealots" as those who advocate "strict VC", but you yourself used to refer to yourself as a "VC Zealot", I only pointed that out to you, and here you go, trying to morph my post about why we need the label of VC into some sort of thread about "Strict VC" and how your are "precieving" that I have a "perspective". My questions are straight forward here with no hidden "persepctives".
silly, just silly
silly, just silly
#23
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Originally Posted by pj7
It's not needed though in my poinion, and aparently in the opinion of others who chose to ride legally on the road as well.
Wouldn't it be easier to say to someone "hey, it's illegal to do that" than to say "you should be riding VC"? The former made the point clear, where as the latter would require an explaination that would end in a comment like "go buy this and that book to see".
Tell me HH, have you ever made money of promoting VC in ANY way? Do you plan on making money off it in ANY way? <-- serious question
Wouldn't it be easier to say to someone "hey, it's illegal to do that" than to say "you should be riding VC"? The former made the point clear, where as the latter would require an explaination that would end in a comment like "go buy this and that book to see".
Tell me HH, have you ever made money of promoting VC in ANY way? Do you plan on making money off it in ANY way? <-- serious question
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Originally Posted by joejack951
If you are going to make accusations, get your facts straight. It's sad that I've paid enough attention on these forums to remember people's signature lines , but HH's previous line was "zealous VC advocate."
but don't both terms mean the same thing?
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Originally Posted by joejack951
And who is advocating going around telling strangers that they are not "riding VC?" I'll argue that it easier to tell someone to ride their bike like they are the driver of a vehicle which means operating according to the vehicular rules of the road than it is to tell them to obey the law as it pertains to cyclists (which we've all agreed most people don't know).
My comment was to make a point about not needing to have this *label* that causes so much flame-throwing and useless threads, such as this one.