The science of bike lane advocacy.
#201
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
That's probably not a bad idea, provided it can me made clear to motorists that there is no speed minimum on this route. The only issue that I can think of with this is what I see happen often around my area, where cars don't look ahead, and they suddenly find themselves going uphill behind a slow vehicle, with the traffic whizzing by on the right, making for a dangerous merge scenario. But, then again, I think this is a driver attention problem (combined with busy traffic), and not necessarily a road design issue.
Originally Posted by zeytoun
I take you for you word. You see a huge difference. I have been "questioned" twice for exiting a bike lane. Once by a driver, who I educated personally (who knows if it stuck), and once by an officer, who I ignored. I also have been "questioned" when taking the lane at places without bike lanes. But that's just my experience. I believe you when you say it makes a huge difference for you.
Originally Posted by zeytoun
Now my law says that you can leave bikelanes for several reasons, including approaching intersections. It is similar (with some small differences) to the law I have that says you should keep near to the curb with several exceptions.
Now, the way I see it, if an officer incorrectly assumed I should be in a bike lane, it shows that he didn't know or understand the law. Would he treat me differently on that same stretch of road if there were no bike lane?
Now, the way I see it, if an officer incorrectly assumed I should be in a bike lane, it shows that he didn't know or understand the law. Would he treat me differently on that same stretch of road if there were no bike lane?
Originally Posted by zeytoun
I guess what I am saying is that we agree on a few things. One is to generally ride vehicularly is a good thing. We probably agree, but to different levels, on how much that affects how we are treated. That doesn't affect our decision on how to ride.
Originally Posted by zeytoun
We also agree that some drivers will treat you improperly, if you don't ride vehicularly. We probably agree that cyclist education is key (and with the relative small number of cyclists, free classes probably work, although we need to somehow reach the cyclists who for whatever reasons, don't attend these classes).
Originally Posted by zeytoun
All that leaves is the bike lane issue (whether to erase or improve) and the general public/driver education issue. I want some sort of shoulder/bike lane area for high speed differentials. You would rather have narrow lanes (by the way, do your arterials have curbs?). If we have bike lanes, we have to educate drivers to let them know that you don't have to be in them just because they want you to be in them. If we don't have bike lanes, I have to find another route if I want a shoulder/bail out area.
Our arterials all have curbs (probably 6-8 inches high and squared off). I create a bail out area by riding left of center in the lane, giving me plenty of space to move right as needed to avoid close passes. I don't consider the lack of a shoulder/bike lane to mean the road lacks a safe amount of room for cycling.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Chip just can't resist slipping in an ad hominem attack on me. It's how he gets his jollies, even if it means pushing all reason aside. It's pathetic.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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You made that statement that you didn't know of such lines anywhere, meaning you consider them out of the ordinary, yet you didn't notice them on your own commute route?
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
In chess, we call this a pin.
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Do you mean, "whizzing by on the left?"
If I'm on a public road, I'm always riding vehicularly, not just generally. To not be vehicular would mean blatantly disregarding the rules of the road and doing such things as riding on the wrong side of the road or not using lights at night. I will use an occasional sidewalk or path but vehicular rules do not apply on those.
I think I understand your position.
#206
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Originally Posted by chipcom
I am serious. You mean to tell me that things about your commute route, 'relevant' or not, don't stick in your mind? That goofy looking tree, that house with the pink flamingo out front, the home with the blue lawn, the cherry trees in that park that look so beautiful in the spring, the place where the paint has been worn off the fog line for the last year, the car that passes you every morning with the garfield doll hangning on the side window, etc. etc. etc? If not, I'd have to question your frequency in commuting too.
Last edited by joejack951; 05-16-07 at 12:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by John Forester
The choice between having a bike lane and having narrow lanes is a false statement, because the best is the wide outside lane, which has all the advantages of easy overtaking by motorists without the disadvantages of the bike-lane stripe.
#208
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Originally Posted by randya
It is certainly not a false statement with regard to already developed dense preautomobile inner cities, where the choice is typically a narrow outside lane or a bike lane. The only places where wide outer lanes are even remotely feasible are in the recently developed or soon-to-be-developed suburbs.
#209
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Originally Posted by randya
It was a while ago, but my recollection is that it was all pretty much added at the same time. A bus lane has also been added to the right of the bike lane more recently, replacing a parking lane. Before that it was a nightmare free for all at the locations I'm familiar with, with lots of aggro motorists and bus drivers honking and trying to edge out the few brave cyclists attempting to 'take the lane'.
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Originally Posted by chipcom
I am serious. You mean to tell me that things about your commute route, 'relevant' or not, don't stick in your mind? That goofy looking tree, that house with the pink flamingo out front, the home with the blue lawn, the cherry trees in that park that look so beautiful in the spring, the place where the paint has been worn off the fog line for the last year, the car that passes you every morning with the garfield doll hangning on the side window, etc. etc. etc? If not, I'd have to question your frequency in commuting too.
No matter how much you notice, there is much more that you don't, which you don't realize because you don't notice it. Are you in a relationship? If so, ask your SO how good you are at "paying attention to everything".
Now, some people are better at noticing irrelevant than others (in the famous gorilla/basketball experiment, about half did not notice the gorilla, but half did). But even the most observant among us probably miss more than they notice. There is just too much information out there. Our minds are constantly filtering the perceived-to-be-relevant from the perceived-to-be-irrelevant. It's a natural cognitive process evolution has honed for survival.
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Originally Posted by chipcom
So if today those dashed lines were now red or blue solid lines, indicating that future construction along the route is likely, you wouldn't notice? How can you notice if something has changed if you never bothered noticing it at all?
However, a specially colored stripe designed to get my attention probably would be processed as "unusual" and hence perceived to be possibly relevant and brought to the attention of my mind.
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You made that statement that you didn't know of such lines anywhere, meaning you consider them out of the ordinary, yet you didn't notice them on your own commute route?
For the record, I did notice how long they were today (though I'm not yet convinced they are the full 100 feet - but I was going too fast to know for sure), but that's because I was specifically looking for them.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
No ship Sherlock. You do ride in bike lanes on occasion. How do you know if you're in a bike lane or out of one, if the markings on the road make no difference to you? If you're playing at Captain Vigilant, you're paying attention to lane position and you find yourself on occasion in a bike lane, yet you ignore bike lane stripes. How can you be vigilant yet ignore the road surface?
EDIT: This morning I was home for a few hours before I went to work. I saw, had breakfast with, and interacted with 2 family members (wife and daughter) and 2 friends who came by. I can't tell you what any of them was wearing. No clue, except I think my daughter had a skirt, though I don't know what color or pattern or anything like that. My daughter and wife and the female friend, on the other hand, could probably tell you exactly what everyone was wearing. That stuff it relevant/interesting to them; it is not to me.
Given that admission, what motivated you to make this up then?
""in most places I've measured the solid doesn't go to dashed until just a few car lengths from the intersection""
""in most places I've measured the solid doesn't go to dashed until just a few car lengths from the intersection""
EDIT: By the way, if I did make it up, or "lie" about this, why on Earth would I do it? Whether San Diego traffic engineers change bike lane striping from solid to dash 200, 100, 60, 30, 10 or 0 feet from the intersection has no relevance to any bike lane argument, pro or con, that I know of.
The only reason it came up was that I was countering what Zeytoun seemed to be saying - that motorists can only enter bike lanes were they are dashed. That's not true. The law allows it up to 200 feet prior to a right turn, regardless of the nature of the striping. So why would I make up anything about this?
Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-16-07 at 12:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by randya
It is certainly not a false statement with regard to already developed dense preautomobile inner cities, where the choice is typically a narrow outside lane or a bike lane. The only places where wide outer lanes are even remotely feasible are in the recently developed or soon-to-be-developed suburbs.
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Originally Posted by randya
It is certainly not a false statement with regard to already developed dense preautomobile inner cities, where the choice is typically a narrow outside lane or a bike lane. The only places where wide outer lanes are even remotely feasible are in the recently developed or soon-to-be-developed suburbs.
If there is room for a bike lane adjacent to the narrow outside lane, then there is room for wide outside lane: just remove the bike lane stripe. In fact, a narrow lane of 11' plus a 5' bike lane takes up more room (16') than a 14' WOL.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
But these lines, that you didn't know of anywhere, actually captivated your attention so much so that you actually measured them, in a number of places.
That makes perfect sense!
That makes perfect sense!
What and how our subconscious mind chooses to bring to the attention of our conscious mind is only starting to become unraveled by cognitive science. But apparently relevance/interest plays a key role, though it's not guaranteed. There are many examples of people not noticing things that arguably should have been noticed.
Again, what else could be the explanation? Are you suggesting I knew about those long stretches of dashed bike lanes, and deliberately lied about it? Why would I? First, I don't lie (I do make mistakes!). Second, the next time Gene or Zeytoun or some other BF SD member paying attention to this thread came to my 'hood he'd call me on it. Finally, if I was a liar and stupid enough to lie about this, why would I? It makes no sense on any level.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
See below for a plausible answer to your question.
The only reason it came up was that I was countering what Zeytoun seemed to be saying
Now, Zeyton also claimed something about bike lanes changing to dash 100 feet prior to intersections, and I questioned that because I honestly had not noticed that. Now, let's say I had noticed it. Why would I question it? What would be the point of acting like I hadn't noticed it? Simply to counter him? Please, I'm busy enough with actual disagreements of substance to bother with artificial ones. What would be the point of that?
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
So much for your claims of superior vigilance, eh?
Anyway, superior vigilance in traffic is about paying attention to that which is relevant and potentially relevant to one's safety, and NOT paying attention that which is the irrelevant, like the solid or dashed nature of bike lane striping.
You numerous contradictory posts.
How did you measure something that is "totally and completely irrelevant" that you claim to "ignore" and that is "irrelevant chaff"?
It's like I usually don't notice what others are wearing, but sometimes I do.
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this thread has degenerated into useleseness.
Head, your spew is pathetic.
Hundreds of studies prove the efficacy of bike infrastructure.
Head, your spew is pathetic.
Hundreds of studies prove the efficacy of bike infrastructure.
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What was being countered was the assertion that striping nature determines where and when motorists may merge into the bike lane.
I asserted that while technically still in existence, when approaching intersections, the concurrence of the dashing, the fact that cars are legally allowed to drive in the area, and the fact that the mandatory bike lane law is now void, lead me to see them as "ended".
I never asserted that the stripe dash delineation is what makes that determination.
Now, Zeyton also claimed something about bike lanes changing to dash 100 feet prior to intersections, and I questioned that because I honestly had not noticed that.
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Now, Zeyton also claimed something about bike lanes changing to dash 100 feet prior to intersections, and I questioned that because I honestly had not noticed that.
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
I never asserted that.
I asserted that while technically still in existence, when approaching intersections, the concurrence of the dashing, the fact that cars are legally allowed to drive in the area, and the fact that the mandatory bike lane law is now void, lead me to see them as "ended".
I never asserted that the stripe dash delineation is what makes that determination.
I asserted that while technically still in existence, when approaching intersections, the concurrence of the dashing, the fact that cars are legally allowed to drive in the area, and the fact that the mandatory bike lane law is now void, lead me to see them as "ended".
I never asserted that the stripe dash delineation is what makes that determination.
I also did not assert that bike lanes change 100 feet prior to intersections. I asserted that a bike lane that dashes 20-60 feet before an intesection would be agianst the the law (which requires the DOT to adopt and follow uniform standards, which were outlined in the those adopted standards I quoted).
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
How exactly did you measure bike lane stripes/bike lanes that are "totally and completely irrelevant" that you claim to "ignore" and that are "irrelevant chaff"?
Hmmm...so the solid or dashed nature of lane striping doesn't come into play when one is being superiorly vigilant. Got it.
Now then, are there parts of the roadway (LIKE PAINTED LINES) that offer different amounts of traction, depending upon the moisture content (like that San Diego fog or even rain)?
Now then, are there parts of the roadway (LIKE PAINTED LINES) that offer different amounts of traction, depending upon the moisture content (like that San Diego fog or even rain)?
I think it could be attributed to your subconscious desire to "win" every and all "arguments."
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I guess I just see [the bike lanes] as ended since they are dashed, the mandatory bike lane law is now void, and cars can legally enter the space." That implied to me that you were saying the switch to "dashed" is what changes it so that "cars can legally enter the space." I hope you can see how that it is not an unreasonable interpretation for me to make.
Next time, when I have a list, I'll write it more like: I guess I just see the bike lanes as ended since 1) they are dashed, 2) the mandatory bike lane law is now void, and 3) cars can legally enter the space. (is that more clear?)
I wondered why you were quoting the fact that drivers can merge 200 feet prior to the lane.
If I had been asserting what you inferred, I would have apologized for an incorrect assertion.
#225
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
Next time, when I have a list, I'll write it more like: I guess I just see the bike lanes as ended since 1) they are dashed, 2) the mandatory bike lane law is now void, and 3) cars can legally enter the space. (is that more clear?)
"I guess I just see the bike lanes as ended since they are dashed (as opposed to solid as they are between intersections), the mandatory bike lane law is now void (you are approaching a place where a right turn is authorized), and cars can legally enter the space (you are 200 feet before an intersection)."
The parathetical statements clear up any confusion about any of the three being related to one another, at least for me.