cyclotoine

I picked up 2 recently with the cable stop. The upper pivot on the later one seems loose and the arm hits the limit screws, not sure how much it's worth but I'm gonna sell them both on ebay. I know this is a really long shot since I am one of the few super intense campagnolo nit pick detail guys on the forum but here goes anyway and without pics too boot...

the one I judge to be early (i believe it first appeared in catalogue 14 (1958)) has thinner lettering on the front of the clamp and the shape of the triangular area has more mass and a sort of elbow on the bottom (holt crap I need a camera)... It seems to be working well although I will have to replace some of the incorrect nuts and bolts with proper ones. Overall it's in pretty good shape. The later on is similar to my first generation Nuovo Record FD in that it is a triangle.

SO this brings me to my question and point of discussion, which I fear will bring little discussion! Does anyone know what year this revision might have taken place? Remember these are BOTH early record with chromed brass arms and cable stops... Now that I write this I think I just might have to keep them for display.

iab

I can't answer your question but I can tell you who can, hi.campy.

https://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

https://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~campa/

iab

Blasphemy!!!!

cyclotoine

thanks for the link... the translator doesn't really make much sense... but wow! My "early" one appears to be an imbetween model of his 2 early record.... the 1 with the screws I question the originality off... I have to wonder if it was modified and why they did away with it and went to NO method of securing the upper pivot.

Holy crap, I just noticed that the lower pivot isn't secured by the spring in the normal fashion as the later one is... It has NO fasteners... the arm has a longer housing and the spring just sits on the arm. I know this makes no sense. I'm going to have to get a camera... I have to wonder now.... mine does have a screwed and not pinned cage as his does... though it seems odd that campagnolo would have screws securing the pivots and then switch to nothing securing the pivots...

repechage

Yes, get a camera.

Now, Campagnolo made running changes as they felt need be, there were no "model years" per se back then, the Catalogues do assit in dating BUT, the illustrations often were reused even if the part actually evolved. And sometimes the parts appeared or morphed between catalogues. They were about selling new parts back then, not concerned about future vintage geeks.

The screw retained lever arms are earliest, even earlier with no slot at the cable stop and a cast in chromed cable barrel for the cable housing to terminate with. Why change? I bet cost, more parts and much more machining, back then more machining steps translated directly into a higher scrap rate.

When my 1972 Record front mechanism started pulling apart as the upper body pivot bent under load... I asked why, and was advised that before I was born it was better, and had screws...!?! By 1974 the modified design with the extended body that provided an increased pivot foundation and the circlip retainer solved the problem, cheaper and less elegantly.

Finding fasteners for your unit that are correct will be a chore, the tube fastening bolt was different, and the cable fixing bolt had the "washer" machined as part of the bolt, the later separate washer is better functionally as it does not turn against the cable but...you were asking about original.

cyclotoine

Thanks repechage! I like learning, especially campagnolo minutia. My older one (the one that is in good condition and functioning well) does not have a slot at cable stop, thanks for directing my attention to that. It doesn't have the one piece cable fixing bolt but perhaps it was replaced... I am always eager to learn about campagnolo history.

luker

The campy gods will shun you unless you post pics of the different derailleurs -

cyclotoine

Okay here is a list of differences. This is one of my better finds I think, I am curious to see how much this baby goes for on the bay. I predict it will fetch in the neighbourhood of $100. I also predict I will regret selling it some day but may be glad for the money when I am in Europe. There are, as I count, 3 distinctly identifiable versions of the record front derailleur from ~1960-1967. Hi-campy has the earliest one which fastens both arms with slotted bolts.

1) The text on the clamp is skinnier on the earlier one

2) The shape of the alloy body is different, there is an extra elbow on the earlier one
compare to above left
3) The part of the body that the limit screws are threaded into is refined on the later one, on the earlier one the shelf had to be machined or drilled to allow clearance for the arm.

4) The earlier one does not have a slot in the cable stop

5) The shape of the body which leads to the cable stop is different

6) The earlier one has nothing to secure either arm while the later one has the design we all know of the spring doing double duty to hold the lower arm on.
compare to left image in difference numbers 3 & 4

cyclotoine

For reference here is the earliest version:


Another anomaly (not the earliest version):

coelcanth

i have a fd like the older one you have found..
(machined limit shelf, no slot in cable stop)
but it does have the provision for the spring to retain the arm
(i'll take a pic when i have a chance)

here are some more pics, saved from hilary stone auctions..
1st 2nd & 3rd generations:

(note the 'C' in the globe logo here.. i'm pretty sure this version only appeared ca.1960)






btw, i've never seen a solid machined cable bolt + washer..
my early record has a normal 2-piece arrangement and so have all the earlier gran sport fd's i've seen

cyclotoine

Ah-ha! Thank coelcanth...
difference 7 the C in the world logo. But something fishy is going on, my later one has the straight lead in and the earlier one has the later curved lead in? Maybe the cage was replaced at some point, but it seems odd that my late model has the straight lead in while the ones pictured above are curved. Perhaps they sat at the bottom of the bin for some time..

Edit, I also noticed in the very last photo you have the later version there is no nut on the bolt which holds the lower pivot to the cage (the part the spring is wrapped around), strangely mine didn't have a nut there either... I wonder if some came without them?




sorry the pics aren't the greatest but I wasn't aware of the difference when I was taking them.

dbakl

For what its worth, I remember going to my high-end bike store in the early 80s for some Nuovo Record small parts. I was going through a catalog sheet from the distributor with the owner and was surprised to see you could still order the front derailler cable stop body. I wouldn't be surprised if you find them on any of the Nuovo Record type fronts, not just the early Records. Many frames came with a front cable stop on the downtube, that would be the correct derailler for them. BTW, I could use one or 2 for my Carltons, though I may use the oldschool solution of running housing under the bb until I find one at an affordable price!

cyclotoine

I thought the solution was east... swap the cages and lower arms to put the older cage on the older body.. Now I see the upper arm was a little shorter on one to allow clearance. Damn... Wrong again, it what just the way I was holding them next to one another, the arms are the same!

Edit: Looking at the hillary's auction pictures I see the last one (latest one) has allow parts. The more I look at the later model I have the more I think it was meant to have alloy arms, A test fit with alloy arms proved to be harmonious. Why the older brass arms made it onto this one I will never know.