Prescription Weight Loss
08-14-07, 04:22 PM
#51
Sophomoric Member
Strange, from your previous posts, I thought you were not a person who would insult somebody who presents ideas that are new to you. I guess I was wrong? If you can attack my ideas without attacking me, we might have an interesting conversation and maybe we'll both learn something. If insult is your idea of argument, we will stop right now.
(I don't know what NAAFA means, but I have a feeling that it's demeaning too.)
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Last edited by Roody; 08-14-07 at 04:28 PM.
08-14-07, 04:49 PM
#52
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[QUOTE=Roody;5068063]Well, since about 90 % of people who lose weight then regain it, there is obviously something going on. Set point is only part of the puzzle, but probably an important part. /QUOTE]
Losing weight and gaining it, has nothing to do with set points, it has to do with "diets", a person who is 100lbs over weight reads the "National Wag", and reads about a diet to lose 100lbs in 6 months, so they try it, and they lose 100lbs in 6 months, so they are happy and end their "diet". They go to MickeyDs and celebrate with 7 Big Macs, and pick up 5 bags of chips, and a gallon of ice cream on the way home, and polish off the whole thing in one sitting, and wonder why they are back up 10lbs the next day. By the end of the month, they have put back on the 100lbs and added 20 more.
However a new eating habit, of controlling what you eat, and adding a good exercise program, and they might take 2 years to lose the weight, but 10 years later, they still have the weight off.
Losing weight and gaining it, has nothing to do with set points, it has to do with "diets", a person who is 100lbs over weight reads the "National Wag", and reads about a diet to lose 100lbs in 6 months, so they try it, and they lose 100lbs in 6 months, so they are happy and end their "diet". They go to MickeyDs and celebrate with 7 Big Macs, and pick up 5 bags of chips, and a gallon of ice cream on the way home, and polish off the whole thing in one sitting, and wonder why they are back up 10lbs the next day. By the end of the month, they have put back on the 100lbs and added 20 more.
However a new eating habit, of controlling what you eat, and adding a good exercise program, and they might take 2 years to lose the weight, but 10 years later, they still have the weight off.
08-14-07, 05:34 PM
#53
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Roody...
NAAFA = National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
"If you can attack my ideas without attacking me, we might have an interesting conversation and maybe we'll both learn something." --- He was attacking your ideas, not you.
Plateauing has nothing to do with body type, it has to do with willpower. In the end, if calories in < calories out, you will lose weight.
Making excuses for not losing is just bad business. It does get harder as you get smaller...but there is no physical barrier there. Your ideas kinda fell in line with the thinking of naafa, thats why he made that comment.
NAAFA = National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
"If you can attack my ideas without attacking me, we might have an interesting conversation and maybe we'll both learn something." --- He was attacking your ideas, not you.
Plateauing has nothing to do with body type, it has to do with willpower. In the end, if calories in < calories out, you will lose weight.
Making excuses for not losing is just bad business. It does get harder as you get smaller...but there is no physical barrier there. Your ideas kinda fell in line with the thinking of naafa, thats why he made that comment.
08-14-07, 05:42 PM
#54
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Anybody in the mood for a large stuffed crust meat lovers pizza? I am - mmmmmm!
But I can't get one. Some foods I like too much and will over-eat if I get them. I can't have cookies and milk in my house - I'll eat the whole package - especially if it's chocolate chip crunchy one's - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
So I eat things I like, but not things I really like and have a history of eating too much of.
Moderation and lots of exercise takes the weight off. A little slow for my taste, but it's coming off. I've found building a whole lot of muscle mass helps me keep the weight in check.
Drugs have caused me a lot of trouble in the past - when I stopped taking them, the weight came back even faster than ever.
But I can't get one. Some foods I like too much and will over-eat if I get them. I can't have cookies and milk in my house - I'll eat the whole package - especially if it's chocolate chip crunchy one's - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
So I eat things I like, but not things I really like and have a history of eating too much of.
Moderation and lots of exercise takes the weight off. A little slow for my taste, but it's coming off. I've found building a whole lot of muscle mass helps me keep the weight in check.
Drugs have caused me a lot of trouble in the past - when I stopped taking them, the weight came back even faster than ever.
08-14-07, 06:57 PM
#55
Sophomoric Member
Plateauing has nothing to do with body type, it has to do with willpower. In the end, if calories in < calories out, you will lose weight.
Making excuses for not losing is just bad business. It does get harder as you get smaller...but there is no physical barrier there. Your ideas kinda fell in line with the thinking of naafa, thats why he made that comment.
Making excuses for not losing is just bad business. It does get harder as you get smaller...but there is no physical barrier there. Your ideas kinda fell in line with the thinking of naafa, thats why he made that comment.
Originally Posted by Gina Kolata, NY Times
The researchers concluded that 70 percent of the variation in peoples’ weights may be accounted for by inheritance, a figure that means that weight is more strongly inherited than nearly any other condition, including mental illness, breast cancer or heart disease.
The results did not mean that people are completely helpless to control their weight, Dr. Stunkard said. But, he said, it did mean that those who tend to be fat will have to constantly battle their genetic inheritance if they want to reach and maintain a significantly lower weight.
The findings also provided evidence for a phenomenon that scientists like Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel were certain was true — each person has a comfortable weight range to which the body gravitates. The range might span 10 or 20 pounds: someone might be able to weigh 120 to 140 pounds without too much effort. Going much above or much below the natural weight range is difficult, however; the body resists by increasing or decreasing the appetite and changing the metabolism to push the weight back to the range it seeks.
The message is so at odds with the popular conception of weight loss — the mantra that all a person has to do is eat less and exercise more — that Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, an obesity researcher at the Rockefeller University, tried to come up with an analogy that would convey what science has found about the powerful biological controls over body weight.
He published it in the journal Science in 2003 and still cites it:
“Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one’s breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe,” Dr. Friedman wrote. “The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty. This is the feeling the obese must resist after they have lost a significant amount of weight.”
The results did not mean that people are completely helpless to control their weight, Dr. Stunkard said. But, he said, it did mean that those who tend to be fat will have to constantly battle their genetic inheritance if they want to reach and maintain a significantly lower weight.
The findings also provided evidence for a phenomenon that scientists like Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel were certain was true — each person has a comfortable weight range to which the body gravitates. The range might span 10 or 20 pounds: someone might be able to weigh 120 to 140 pounds without too much effort. Going much above or much below the natural weight range is difficult, however; the body resists by increasing or decreasing the appetite and changing the metabolism to push the weight back to the range it seeks.
The message is so at odds with the popular conception of weight loss — the mantra that all a person has to do is eat less and exercise more — that Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, an obesity researcher at the Rockefeller University, tried to come up with an analogy that would convey what science has found about the powerful biological controls over body weight.
He published it in the journal Science in 2003 and still cites it:
“Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one’s breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe,” Dr. Friedman wrote. “The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty. This is the feeling the obese must resist after they have lost a significant amount of weight.”
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08-14-07, 07:07 PM
#56
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For what it's worth, the body does hit plateaus during weight loss for 2 reasons:
That's the reason we supplement protein, by the way, to offset dynamic tissue loss (Muscle), until the body resumes burning fat again in it's normal cycle of burn after we cross the new threshold beyond the adapted new setpoint for the switch between The Kreb Cycle (Citric acid cycle or Sugars cycle), and the anaerobic cycle (Protein/Fat metabolism), as well as the switch within the anaerobic cycle from protein to fat burn resultant from long term effort at 70% Max HR.
The source of my data is Hole's Human Anatomy and Physiology, 2003 edition as well as several Sports Nutrition Sites and information obtained in Lecture by my A&P Professor, Dr David McBride, MD, PhD, Naturopathic Medicine and Nutrition.
Edit: By the way, this is NOT a "Fat Acceptance" concept, it's a medical fact, confirmed by a lot of research in nutrition and body chemistry.
- Adaptation syndrome: Our bodies adapt to exercise and reduce the caloric burn by operation more efficiently for the same given physical effort, resulting in a plateau.
- Our bodies prefer to burn the least efficient storing dynamic tissues first to keep a reserve. Fat is a static tissue, requiring very little energy to maintain, hence the body will burn that last.
That's the reason we supplement protein, by the way, to offset dynamic tissue loss (Muscle), until the body resumes burning fat again in it's normal cycle of burn after we cross the new threshold beyond the adapted new setpoint for the switch between The Kreb Cycle (Citric acid cycle or Sugars cycle), and the anaerobic cycle (Protein/Fat metabolism), as well as the switch within the anaerobic cycle from protein to fat burn resultant from long term effort at 70% Max HR.
The source of my data is Hole's Human Anatomy and Physiology, 2003 edition as well as several Sports Nutrition Sites and information obtained in Lecture by my A&P Professor, Dr David McBride, MD, PhD, Naturopathic Medicine and Nutrition.
Edit: By the way, this is NOT a "Fat Acceptance" concept, it's a medical fact, confirmed by a lot of research in nutrition and body chemistry.
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. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
08-14-07, 08:37 PM
#57
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I believe a clarification of "set point" is in order here. The term is not "fat acceptance BS" as far as I can tell. It is used within the fitness industry to describe a period where your current metabolism resists further change. This may actually be the body's way of telling us that progress is too quick. Some people refer to these periods as plateaus. "Set point BS" would be when someone uses lack of progress in weight loss as a sign that they have reached an ideal weight. At which point, I agree, they are full of BS.
The difficulty is in determining what the cause of the lack of progress is. It may be a return to bad habits in eating, but it can also be caused by no increase in volume, intensity, or both in exercise. The fact of the matter is that we get into ruts very easily. Careful attention to the training journal is just as important as careful attention to the food journal. Simply getting out to ride may not do you as much good now as it did six months ago, especially if the intensities of the rides are the same. The body is an incredibly adaptable machine and needs to be pushed just a little bit on a regular basis.
So the take-home point here is that you have to stick with the good eating and hard training for the long haul. Things like weight loss pills (to get back to the main topic) are useful tools (yes, I have used them with success with no ill physical effects or mental trauma) when used at appropriate times. They can also become a crutch to those who are looking for the quick fix and are unwilling to develop the necessary life changes to see success in fat loss.
The difficulty is in determining what the cause of the lack of progress is. It may be a return to bad habits in eating, but it can also be caused by no increase in volume, intensity, or both in exercise. The fact of the matter is that we get into ruts very easily. Careful attention to the training journal is just as important as careful attention to the food journal. Simply getting out to ride may not do you as much good now as it did six months ago, especially if the intensities of the rides are the same. The body is an incredibly adaptable machine and needs to be pushed just a little bit on a regular basis.
So the take-home point here is that you have to stick with the good eating and hard training for the long haul. Things like weight loss pills (to get back to the main topic) are useful tools (yes, I have used them with success with no ill physical effects or mental trauma) when used at appropriate times. They can also become a crutch to those who are looking for the quick fix and are unwilling to develop the necessary life changes to see success in fat loss.
08-14-07, 08:44 PM
#58
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Strange, from your previous posts, I thought you were not a person who would insult somebody who presents ideas that are new to you. I guess I was wrong? If you can attack my ideas without attacking me, we might have an interesting conversation and maybe we'll both learn something. If insult is your idea of argument, we will stop right now.
(I don't know what NAAFA means, but I have a feeling that it's demeaning too.)
(I don't know what NAAFA means, but I have a feeling that it's demeaning too.)
08-14-07, 10:12 PM
#59
Sophomoric Member
Even assuming your statistic is accurate and means something, there could be a lot more going on than you are assuming.
And I suggest you read Fumento's book The Fat of the Land.
I'm not sure it's worthwhile to argue with you, since you can't, or won't, tell the difference between debating your ideas and ad hom. To put it in chess terms, I play the board and not the man.
And I suggest you read Fumento's book The Fat of the Land.
I'm not sure it's worthwhile to argue with you, since you can't, or won't, tell the difference between debating your ideas and ad hom. To put it in chess terms, I play the board and not the man.
Now I don't have the energy to recreate it, Basically I said that my statistic is accurate, and I agree there's a lot more than one thing going on. I said the research into the molecular abnormalities of obese people is fascinating and deals mainly with hormones that control appetite and metbolism. The studies confirm the experiences of myself and probably many others on this board: that it's hard as hell to maintain weight loss back to "normal" if you were once obese. It can be done, but for me it's a lot easier to stay at 210 than "normal" 180. I said that my own body's normal seems to be about 210 to 240. I stay at the low end of that. I have to exercise A LOT and be careful what I eat to stay there. It's a painful struggle for me to stay at 180, as I mentioned, and really not worth the trouble.I also said thanks for the reccommendation and I ordered the Fumento book from my library.
I concluded that I did find your comment about my load of crap to be insulting. It didn't hurt my feelings but it didn't further the discussion either. Now I'm going to Control-C this thing in case the server is still acting up. Take care, Roody
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08-15-07, 02:40 AM
#60
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For what it's worth, the body does hit plateaus during weight loss for 2 reasons:
That's the reason we supplement protein, by the way, to offset dynamic tissue loss (Muscle), until the body resumes burning fat again in it's normal cycle of burn after we cross the new threshold beyond the adapted new setpoint for the switch between The Kreb Cycle (Citric acid cycle or Sugars cycle), and the anaerobic cycle (Protein/Fat metabolism), as well as the switch within the anaerobic cycle from protein to fat burn resultant from long term effort at 70% Max HR.
The source of my data is Hole's Human Anatomy and Physiology, 2003 edition as well as several Sports Nutrition Sites and information obtained in Lecture by my A&P Professor, Dr David McBride, MD, PhD, Naturopathic Medicine and Nutrition.
Edit: By the way, this is NOT a "Fat Acceptance" concept, it's a medical fact, confirmed by a lot of research in nutrition and body chemistry.
- Adaptation syndrome: Our bodies adapt to exercise and reduce the caloric burn by operation more efficiently for the same given physical effort, resulting in a plateau.
- Our bodies prefer to burn the least efficient storing dynamic tissues first to keep a reserve. Fat is a static tissue, requiring very little energy to maintain, hence the body will burn that last.
That's the reason we supplement protein, by the way, to offset dynamic tissue loss (Muscle), until the body resumes burning fat again in it's normal cycle of burn after we cross the new threshold beyond the adapted new setpoint for the switch between The Kreb Cycle (Citric acid cycle or Sugars cycle), and the anaerobic cycle (Protein/Fat metabolism), as well as the switch within the anaerobic cycle from protein to fat burn resultant from long term effort at 70% Max HR.
The source of my data is Hole's Human Anatomy and Physiology, 2003 edition as well as several Sports Nutrition Sites and information obtained in Lecture by my A&P Professor, Dr David McBride, MD, PhD, Naturopathic Medicine and Nutrition.
Edit: By the way, this is NOT a "Fat Acceptance" concept, it's a medical fact, confirmed by a lot of research in nutrition and body chemistry.
"For Michael Fumento, you see, doesn't believe in any of this newfangled set-point, genetics, or slow metabolism baloney." - Dimensions magazine review of The Fat of the Land.
"Current setpoint theory states that everyone has a natural weight which their body will automatically protect. Diets are nothing but voluntary starvation. The body protects itself from perceived famine by increasing energy efficiency and raising its set-point even higher. This theory explains why diets more frequently result in weight gain than in permanent weight loss." - NAAFA
https://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/nextdiet.html
So while "set point" may have a basis in fact, that's not how fat acceptance spins it. And as a formerly morbidly obese person who toyed with fat acceptance in his former 'life', please take my word for it.
08-15-07, 02:41 AM
#61
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Roody...
NAAFA = National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
"If you can attack my ideas without attacking me, we might have an interesting conversation and maybe we'll both learn something." --- He was attacking your ideas, not you.
Plateauing has nothing to do with body type, it has to do with willpower. In the end, if calories in < calories out, you will lose weight.
Making excuses for not losing is just bad business. It does get harder as you get smaller...but there is no physical barrier there. Your ideas kinda fell in line with the thinking of naafa, thats why he made that comment.
NAAFA = National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
"If you can attack my ideas without attacking me, we might have an interesting conversation and maybe we'll both learn something." --- He was attacking your ideas, not you.
Plateauing has nothing to do with body type, it has to do with willpower. In the end, if calories in < calories out, you will lose weight.
Making excuses for not losing is just bad business. It does get harder as you get smaller...but there is no physical barrier there. Your ideas kinda fell in line with the thinking of naafa, thats why he made that comment.
08-15-07, 06:27 AM
#62
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Roody
I can find scientific claims on both sides of the fence for that. Most modern dietary studies are full of fallacy, since you cant really control what people put into themselves. What people actually eat, and what they tell the managers of these studies can be 2 different things.
Or some studies are setup to prove an idea, rather than the other way around. For example, NYT had an article some time ago that said that a recent study found that fiber does not, in-fact, reduce the chance of heart problems. What was the basis of this study? They too a group of high-risk people, told them NOT to change their diet. Gave half of them a 15mg pill of fiber to take a day. 15mg!!! No wonder there was no noticable effect.
Science is driven by money these days, to the point that you cant rely on any single source, and you especially cant rely on anything that says "recent study". "Recent study" is scientific jargon for unproven, marginally acceptable research.
I want you to find me one person, who eats less calories than they burn, that gain their weight back. Please, do that for me. Do that and come back. People lose willpower, the cheescake looks to good at that god-damned philly cheese steak place outside of lowes smells like heaven. Thats why people gain it back. We eat meats at 100 calories an ounce, covered in cheese thats 100 calories (100% from fat) per slice, and we put in on white bread, from which the grains have literally had all of their nutrients removed and your left with nothing but carbs and calories. We'll cook said meat in oil. Then, we might put a little vegatables on it to make ourselves feel better about eating it.
Set-point my a... I'm not fat because my body wants me to be, I'm fat because I have willpower problems, and because I would rather sit and write code than go walk around the block.
Oh, and for the genetics issue: Adopted children of obese parents are just as likely to be obese as natural children. and the big one: Obese families are much more likely to have obese pets. Its what we put in, nothing more. Genetics play a small part. What used to be an evolutionary gift (the ability to store more food and burn less energy) is now a curse, but even that mechanism doesnt account for obesity on the scale we have today, its personal choice and willpower.
I can find scientific claims on both sides of the fence for that. Most modern dietary studies are full of fallacy, since you cant really control what people put into themselves. What people actually eat, and what they tell the managers of these studies can be 2 different things.
Or some studies are setup to prove an idea, rather than the other way around. For example, NYT had an article some time ago that said that a recent study found that fiber does not, in-fact, reduce the chance of heart problems. What was the basis of this study? They too a group of high-risk people, told them NOT to change their diet. Gave half of them a 15mg pill of fiber to take a day. 15mg!!! No wonder there was no noticable effect.
Science is driven by money these days, to the point that you cant rely on any single source, and you especially cant rely on anything that says "recent study". "Recent study" is scientific jargon for unproven, marginally acceptable research.
I want you to find me one person, who eats less calories than they burn, that gain their weight back. Please, do that for me. Do that and come back. People lose willpower, the cheescake looks to good at that god-damned philly cheese steak place outside of lowes smells like heaven. Thats why people gain it back. We eat meats at 100 calories an ounce, covered in cheese thats 100 calories (100% from fat) per slice, and we put in on white bread, from which the grains have literally had all of their nutrients removed and your left with nothing but carbs and calories. We'll cook said meat in oil. Then, we might put a little vegatables on it to make ourselves feel better about eating it.
Set-point my a... I'm not fat because my body wants me to be, I'm fat because I have willpower problems, and because I would rather sit and write code than go walk around the block.
Oh, and for the genetics issue: Adopted children of obese parents are just as likely to be obese as natural children. and the big one: Obese families are much more likely to have obese pets. Its what we put in, nothing more. Genetics play a small part. What used to be an evolutionary gift (the ability to store more food and burn less energy) is now a curse, but even that mechanism doesnt account for obesity on the scale we have today, its personal choice and willpower.
08-15-07, 07:49 AM
#63
Genetics have failed me
I thought "Recent Study" is a marketing term, not a scientific one 
I hear that term so many times on the radio and TV it's not even funny.
I hear that term so many times on the radio and TV it's not even funny.
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08-15-07, 09:52 AM
#64
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Nope, I didn't miss your point, Neil. I was merely defining the term so it could be correctly used as well as describing the physiological mechanism involved. That's part of a scientific and philosophical argument and debate, which is what you were attempting to do.
I merely added some information to the stream and vetted my position as to relevance and accuracy.
I merely added some information to the stream and vetted my position as to relevance and accuracy.
Tom, you, and many others it seems, missed my point - the term "set point" is routinely used by the obese to justify their lifestyle. They do not use it to mean "plateau."
"For Michael Fumento, you see, doesn't believe in any of this newfangled set-point, genetics, or slow metabolism baloney." - Dimensions magazine review of The Fat of the Land.
"Current setpoint theory states that everyone has a natural weight which their body will automatically protect. Diets are nothing but voluntary starvation. The body protects itself from perceived famine by increasing energy efficiency and raising its set-point even higher. This theory explains why diets more frequently result in weight gain than in permanent weight loss." - NAAFA
https://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/nextdiet.html
So while "set point" may have a basis in fact, that's not how fat acceptance spins it. And as a formerly morbidly obese person who toyed with fat acceptance in his former 'life', please take my word for it.
"For Michael Fumento, you see, doesn't believe in any of this newfangled set-point, genetics, or slow metabolism baloney." - Dimensions magazine review of The Fat of the Land.
"Current setpoint theory states that everyone has a natural weight which their body will automatically protect. Diets are nothing but voluntary starvation. The body protects itself from perceived famine by increasing energy efficiency and raising its set-point even higher. This theory explains why diets more frequently result in weight gain than in permanent weight loss." - NAAFA
https://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/nextdiet.html
So while "set point" may have a basis in fact, that's not how fat acceptance spins it. And as a formerly morbidly obese person who toyed with fat acceptance in his former 'life', please take my word for it.
__________________
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
08-15-07, 11:10 AM
#65
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"Current setpoint theory states that everyone has a natural weight which their body will automatically protect. Diets are nothing but voluntary starvation. The body protects itself from perceived famine by increasing energy efficiency and raising its set-point even higher. This theory explains why diets more frequently result in weight gain than in permanent weight loss." - NAAFA
https://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/nextdiet.html
https://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/nextdiet.html
For the last 12 years I have been within 5lbs (+/-) of 295, I rode my bike a lot, but never really seemed to loose the weight, this year I decided it was time to loose the weight, and additional exercise wasn't the only answer, it is a combination of things that helps with the weight loss. I also have High blood pressure (although 10 years ago it wasn't considered high, go figure, some drug company needed to sell more meds so they get a study to change the Set point, but that's a whole other discussion) and after doing a bit of research it dawned on me that there wasn't just one thing that would lower your BP to the level that my doctor wanted it, but there were a lot of small things that I could do that when added together would cause my BP to drop to an acceptable level. It is the same with weight loss, there really is no one thing that will cause you to drop the pounds overnight, but there are a lot small things that you can do that when they are added together will cause you to loose weight. That is why it really needs to be a lifestyle change, and the lifestyle change isn't just to loose weight but it is rather to be a healthy and fit person. The other thing is that you have to decide on the changes individually, what works for me may not work for the next person. You also have to have the willpower to make the choice to do it, and it is my choice if I want to loose weight and be fit.
As I said in a previous post there really is not magic bullet that will cause the weight loss that most people are looking for, but what will cause the weight loss is the acceptance of responsibility and that the only person that can do it for you is yourself.
08-15-07, 11:25 AM
#66
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From personal experience, and the experience of others at my dietician, I think that set-points definitely exist. I also think that you can change your set-point if you change your lifestyle enough. They thought that my set-point was about 20 pounds heavier than it ended up being. I've seen similar mis-calculations for establishing an obese person's maintenance weight. Independent of currently measurable things like bone density, musculature, etc. some people end up significantly heavier or lighter than the "experts" think. There is a lot of natural variation out there in the human genome and phenome that we don't understand yet. And that is just the biology-end of things.
Again, I think that you guys are so tied up in the facts and science figures of the subject that you have lost sight of the hows and whys of losing weight and keeping it off. For most people, willpower is only a short-term solution. Many people respond very negatively to the "shame on you" mentality that works for some. The shame factor and not being constantly vigilant about exactly what you are eating is why there is a 90% recitivism rate for obesity for most "diets". Most people can't be that vigilant for the rest of their lives, and the weight creeps slowly back onto you over time with just a few extra calories per day. It is so easy to have a few extra bites per day and not notice, fall into old eating patterns with family and freinds that eat like you used to, etc. By the time it is obvious that there is a significant problem, most people just give up and are ashamed of themselves for not having the willpower to stay-the-course.
Most people don't want to live their lives like some sort of wieght loss engineers, scientists, or food nazis. And I think that the word "want" is the key thing here. What is the motivation for people to lose weight and keep it off? People tend to naturally do what feels good. I think that you have to set up your lifestyle such that you WANT something that makes you feel better than triple servings of pizza. You have to change everything about how you deal with food in your life, and LIKE it. You have to change how you think and feel about eating in general, for a lasting change.
Again, I think that you guys are so tied up in the facts and science figures of the subject that you have lost sight of the hows and whys of losing weight and keeping it off. For most people, willpower is only a short-term solution. Many people respond very negatively to the "shame on you" mentality that works for some. The shame factor and not being constantly vigilant about exactly what you are eating is why there is a 90% recitivism rate for obesity for most "diets". Most people can't be that vigilant for the rest of their lives, and the weight creeps slowly back onto you over time with just a few extra calories per day. It is so easy to have a few extra bites per day and not notice, fall into old eating patterns with family and freinds that eat like you used to, etc. By the time it is obvious that there is a significant problem, most people just give up and are ashamed of themselves for not having the willpower to stay-the-course.
Most people don't want to live their lives like some sort of wieght loss engineers, scientists, or food nazis. And I think that the word "want" is the key thing here. What is the motivation for people to lose weight and keep it off? People tend to naturally do what feels good. I think that you have to set up your lifestyle such that you WANT something that makes you feel better than triple servings of pizza. You have to change everything about how you deal with food in your life, and LIKE it. You have to change how you think and feel about eating in general, for a lasting change.
08-15-07, 01:12 PM
#67
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08-15-07, 10:35 PM
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In other words, the body wants to maintain it's current weight. What a concept!
They thought that my set-point was about 20 pounds heavier than it ended up being. I've seen similar mis-calculations for establishing an obese person's maintenance weight. Independent of currently measurable things like bone density, musculature, etc. some people end up significantly heavier or lighter than the "experts" think. There is a lot of natural variation out there in the human genome and phenome that we don't understand yet. And that is just the biology-end of things.
Again, I think that you guys are so tied up in the facts and science figures of the subject that you have lost sight of the hows and whys of losing weight and keeping it off.
Again, I think that you guys are so tied up in the facts and science figures of the subject that you have lost sight of the hows and whys of losing weight and keeping it off.
The shame factor and not being constantly vigilant about exactly what you are eating is why there is a 90% recitivism rate for obesity for most "diets". Most people can't be that vigilant for the rest of their lives, and the weight creeps slowly back onto you over time with just a few extra calories per day. It is so easy to have a few extra bites per day and not notice, fall into old eating patterns with family and freinds that eat like you used to, etc. By the time it is obvious that there is a significant problem, most people just give up and are ashamed of themselves for not having the willpower to stay-the-course.
Most people don't want to live their lives like some sort of wieght loss engineers, scientists, or food nazis. And I think that the word "want" is the key thing here. What is the motivation for people to lose weight and keep it off? People tend to naturally do what feels good. I think that you have to set up your lifestyle such that you WANT something that makes you feel better than triple servings of pizza. You have to change everything about how you deal with food in your life, and LIKE it. You have to change how you think and feel about eating in general, for a lasting change.
Most people don't want to live their lives like some sort of wieght loss engineers, scientists, or food nazis. And I think that the word "want" is the key thing here. What is the motivation for people to lose weight and keep it off? People tend to naturally do what feels good. I think that you have to set up your lifestyle such that you WANT something that makes you feel better than triple servings of pizza. You have to change everything about how you deal with food in your life, and LIKE it. You have to change how you think and feel about eating in general, for a lasting change.
08-15-07, 10:41 PM
#69
And he's single...
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In other words, the body wants to maintain it's current weight. What a concept!
I must have lost track of it along with the 143 pounds I lost. How do you lose weight again? I forgot.
I don't see anyone advocating "shame" as a weight loss motivational tool.
Willpower is overrated. I try to use common sense instead. Since I've been known to get 'food' from vending machines, I don't carry cash. Since I've from time to time snacked mindlessly in front of the computer, I don't keep food at my PC any longer. I suppose that makes me a food nazi, whatever that is?
I must have lost track of it along with the 143 pounds I lost. How do you lose weight again? I forgot.
I don't see anyone advocating "shame" as a weight loss motivational tool.
Willpower is overrated. I try to use common sense instead. Since I've been known to get 'food' from vending machines, I don't carry cash. Since I've from time to time snacked mindlessly in front of the computer, I don't keep food at my PC any longer. I suppose that makes me a food nazi, whatever that is?
/plateau for the time being.# August 1 - 242
# July 17 - 243
# July 2 - 245
# June 23 - 245
# June 16, 2007 - 246
# May 4, 2007 - 247
# April 7, 2007 - 249
Last edited by Tom Stormcrowe; 08-16-07 at 06:44 AM.
08-15-07, 11:00 PM
#70
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J, I have a question for you.....
Are you losing size? If this is the case, where you are picking up a bit of weight but reproportioning with smaller waist, etc, then you need to remember that during exercise, you do pick up muscle mass, as well as bone mass.
Muscle= 7X the density of fat
Bone = 15X the density of fat.
I can tell you also that the effects of Prednisone can last for a while after you go off of it. It can also trigger a temporary Diabetes syndrome while you're on it.
At the end of the day, though, you have to do what YOU have to do. No one else's views on this really matter, other than your Doctor and family. From what you've posted, you are fully aware of any risks, as well as the potential benefit. If it takes medical intervention to break the cycle, then so be it. Use the tools that work for you and we'll try to help as we can.
Are you losing size? If this is the case, where you are picking up a bit of weight but reproportioning with smaller waist, etc, then you need to remember that during exercise, you do pick up muscle mass, as well as bone mass.
Muscle= 7X the density of fat
Bone = 15X the density of fat.
I can tell you also that the effects of Prednisone can last for a while after you go off of it. It can also trigger a temporary Diabetes syndrome while you're on it.
At the end of the day, though, you have to do what YOU have to do. No one else's views on this really matter, other than your Doctor and family. From what you've posted, you are fully aware of any risks, as well as the potential benefit. If it takes medical intervention to break the cycle, then so be it. Use the tools that work for you and we'll try to help as we can.
__________________
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
08-15-07, 11:13 PM
#71
And he's single...
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Yeah I've been losing waist sizes (almost 4 inches so far). My concern was the actual loss of the weight itself. Because that isn't taking place, I'm worried about the possible reasons for it. Yeah the prednisone really messed up my body. But... On the same token I have to take it about once a year. I have very extreme eczema flare ups (i.e. go to sleep and wake up in the morning with small water blisters all over my hands). So there's not really another option on that front. We'll see what happens with the weight loss and I'll let you guys know. I'm going to go scarf down about 10 Phenterimine's should be a fun night .
.
08-15-07, 11:23 PM
#72
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Yeah I've been losing waist sizes (almost 4 inches so far). My concern was the actual loss of the weight itself. Because that isn't taking place, I'm worried about the possible reasons for it. Yeah the prednisone really messed up my body. But... On the same token I have to take it about once a year. I have very extreme eczema flare ups (i.e. go to sleep and wake up in the morning with small water blisters all over my hands). So there's not really another option on that front. We'll see what happens with the weight loss and I'll let you guys know. I'm going to go scarf down about 10 Phenterimine's should be a fun night .
.
__________________
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
08-16-07, 04:42 AM
#73
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I cannot help what people choose to read into my posts. Oftentimes that's not what I put there.Goal weight 225 pounds
+ Loose skin 15 pounds
= 240
So I'm 2 or so pounds above goal weight. Your point?
08-16-07, 05:24 AM
#74
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Ok, I had never read that to this point so I read it, what a load of BS. Weight loss is a life decision, the way to achieve it is to change your life style and take responsibility for your choices of both food and exercise. Sorry but that was probably the most irritating thing I've read in a long time.
For the last 12 years I have been within 5lbs (+/-) of 295, I rode my bike a lot, but never really seemed to loose the weight, this year I decided it was time to loose the weight, and additional exercise wasn't the only answer, it is a combination of things that helps with the weight loss. I also have High blood pressure (although 10 years ago it wasn't considered high, go figure, some drug company needed to sell more meds so they get a study to change the Set point, but that's a whole other discussion) and after doing a bit of research it dawned on me that there wasn't just one thing that would lower your BP to the level that my doctor wanted it, but there were a lot of small things that I could do that when added together would cause my BP to drop to an acceptable level. It is the same with weight loss, there really is no one thing that will cause you to drop the pounds overnight, but there are a lot small things that you can do that when they are added together will cause you to loose weight. That is why it really needs to be a lifestyle change, and the lifestyle change isn't just to loose weight but it is rather to be a healthy and fit person. The other thing is that you have to decide on the changes individually, what works for me may not work for the next person. You also have to have the willpower to make the choice to do it, and it is my choice if I want to loose weight and be fit.
As I said in a previous post there really is not magic bullet that will cause the weight loss that most people are looking for, but what will cause the weight loss is the acceptance of responsibility and that the only person that can do it for you is yourself.
For the last 12 years I have been within 5lbs (+/-) of 295, I rode my bike a lot, but never really seemed to loose the weight, this year I decided it was time to loose the weight, and additional exercise wasn't the only answer, it is a combination of things that helps with the weight loss. I also have High blood pressure (although 10 years ago it wasn't considered high, go figure, some drug company needed to sell more meds so they get a study to change the Set point, but that's a whole other discussion) and after doing a bit of research it dawned on me that there wasn't just one thing that would lower your BP to the level that my doctor wanted it, but there were a lot of small things that I could do that when added together would cause my BP to drop to an acceptable level. It is the same with weight loss, there really is no one thing that will cause you to drop the pounds overnight, but there are a lot small things that you can do that when they are added together will cause you to loose weight. That is why it really needs to be a lifestyle change, and the lifestyle change isn't just to loose weight but it is rather to be a healthy and fit person. The other thing is that you have to decide on the changes individually, what works for me may not work for the next person. You also have to have the willpower to make the choice to do it, and it is my choice if I want to loose weight and be fit.
As I said in a previous post there really is not magic bullet that will cause the weight loss that most people are looking for, but what will cause the weight loss is the acceptance of responsibility and that the only person that can do it for you is yourself.
Speaking of power, do you feel the power that comes with accepting personal responsibility for your weight and health?
08-16-07, 08:36 AM
#75
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I actually think it's more liberation than power. Power over my own image yes, but it is liberating to know that I have the knowledge and ability to do it, as well as the desire to put it into action.