strider

What are the pros and cons of integrated vs non-integrated (standard?) head sets? I seem to recall reading that there are some concerns about integrated head sets potentially damaging the head tube. Can anyone separate fact from fiction on this or provide a link that can educate me? Thanks.

Bruco

Chris King is not particularly fond of integrated headsets.

Many others second his opinion. Arguments range from 'potential frame damage' to 'too modern, hence ugly'.

So far, I personally have not had any major difficulties with my setup (Litespeed Arenberg frame with a Cane Creek Integrated headset).

strider

Bruco.... Thanks for the prompt reply and the link, certainly valuable data to consider.

khuon

Personally I agree with CK on the integrated headset thing. From an engineering standpoint, I do think the potential for frame damage is higher. And I don't think they look any prettier either... cleaner maybe but I think it also makes the headtube look dull.

However, that said, you have to remember that Chris King makes products that will last so long you can pass them on to your great grand children. Cockroaches will rule the Earth long before a CK component will wear out. And probably the only thing that will destroy them is when our Sun goes supernova. So to CK, anything that doesn't measure up to that kind of durability and longevity is of lesser value. From a practical standpoint, it is unlikely that many integrated headsets will cause problems over the "useful life" of the frame as defined by the time you personally will keep the bike. Note that I did not say the actual lifetime of the frame. Many people replace their bikes every few years. For me, traditional headset installations have always worked and have proven themselves. Integrated headsets have yet to do the same and seems an answer to a non-problem while at the same time opening up some potential new problems.

firebolt

Yeah, but I bet it won't be compatible with their bikes, just like threaded stem is not compatible with most of today's bikes. Did anybody asked for threadless stem? Changing from threaded to threadless was a non-problem issue, but I bet it's cheaper to produce... not to mention that it does make the bike look fresh and modern.

Anyhow, choosing a headset is as exciting as choosing a radiator for my car. The fact is, headset is not a deciding factor in choosing a bike for 95% of potential buyers. They won't even know it's there.

rippo

threadless stems do make it easier (and cheaper?) to fit your bike to your body, without having to pull off the headset if you want a longer or shorter reach to the bars. so there is some functional advantage.

khuon

Huh? I'm confused. I think threadless stems make it harder to change bike fit. Quill stems with threaded headsets allow you to simply loosen the expander bolt and raise the stem. I've never had to remove a threaded headset in order to change handlebar height. With a threadless headset and stem combination, in order to increase the height, you need a new steerer... or fork if the steerer isn't removable. If you want to lower then you need to play with spacer positioning or cut the steerer once you're done.

rippo

sorry khuon, i wasn't specific. i meant stem length, as opposed to height.

ImprezaDrvr

If you're a do it yourselfer, it's easier to set up an integrated headset. I'd call that practical.

I think that, for most road bikes, headset strain is not as much of an issue. Granted, there are rough roads and gravel roads to contend with, but it's not like you're bombing downhill runs on them. As a result, I think that an integrated headset offers a negligable disadvantage to a regular headset in terms of durability. For me, it wasn't a deciding factor with my new steed. It just came with an integrated headset and I said, "Oh, look, something different". I wouldn't consider it a deal breaker, personally.

And, remember that, like Cannondale and its bemoaning of using carbon stays on aluminum bikes to smooth the ride, King is slightly biased towards its own production methods and products. They are trying to sell you this stuff, after all. (Not that they don't know what they're talking about, just remember the biased point of view they come from when you read what they say.)

Jay H

Nobody mentioned that for short riders, the integrated cups in the headtube in an integrated headset will lower stem height a bit for say short riders looking at small racing bikes or time trial bikes in the sub 51cm range.

Jay

fogrider

I don't have a bike with the new threadless design, but I have set up a few for friends, my question is how do they wear? I have wore out a headset or two in the past. I was unable to get parts so I had to replace the headset. Are there parts for the integrated headsets it the bearing surface wears out? I remember when Klein first put an integrated headset in their bike and that was also the concern there. Does anyone have any experience with those?

TimB

From an engineering point of view I see no issues with Integrated headsets.
The headset is there to join the fork to the frame in such a manner that it allows free rotation while preventing vertical movement. Integrated headsets do this.
They provide the same amount of support, especially the Cane Creek headsets which seem to be seeting the std for Integrated headsets.
The big issue with integrated headsets in supposedly bearing life and CK says they won't last as long.
But that's false information IMO. Bearing life is determined by contact area, not bearing size although in some cases the to are related.
Once again it's a mtter of design.

I think they look neater and have opened up an area for a bit of innovation in what has otherwise become a staid product. If my Cane Creek's bearing fail I'll get new ones.
They don't touch my frame asthey have their own races and use sealed angular contact cartridge bearing so they are adjustable.
The integrated headset on my F3000SL mTB is two years old and is still going strong.

I see no reason why there needs to be contention over this component. Like all headsets, if adjusted correctly, integrated headsets will last a long time.

khuon

Yes, that is certainly a bonus of integrated headsets. One doesn't need to own a press and reamer.

This is true and why I don't think it's much of a factour for most people. I also think that on Ti or steel frames it's even less of a factour than with Al.


Yeah, I was trying to hint at the same thing. CK is biased based upon their own high standards. Impressive standards that they are... For many people, that may not be a big deal.

khuon

I'm still confused. Why would you have to remove the headset in order to incrase stem length?

rippo

i think i'll bow out of this conversation. i think i'm a) slightly confused and b) talking about something else.

MichaelW

I wonder how well integrated headsets are aligned on cheaper bikes. Do they ream and carve out the shape after welding, or do they put the headtube on a lathe before construction and heat distortion.
There is an issue of headset life on smaller bikes with very short head tubes, but this has been solved by the wider diameter headsets which are now standard.

Code Monkey

i don't really know anything about headsets, but i thought that some integrated headsets uses replaceable beaings track...

khuon

I think you're thinking of internal headsets or hidden headsets.

Bikedud

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will) because this id from memory , but isn't CK's biggest problem with integrated headsets the issue of the frame being the cup for the bearings and race? Without a replaceable cup your frame takes the abuse the cup normally would and what happens if you wear the inner surface of your frame unevenly (no cups)? Your frame is damaged. For someone who keeps and rides frames for years this might be a major issue. I have a 17 year old frame I still ride somewhat regularly. I think I'm on my third (maybe second) headset. I vcan't imagine being able to do that with an integrated headset.

georgesnatcher

Just think, if you had a King headset you would probably still be on your first. I have nothing but King on any of my bikes.

Bikedud

I have a Chris King on the bike now. Normally I can't afford king but I really like this frame so I splurged.

Code Monkey

so what do i do when i wear out the race on the frame of my Tuscany...? throw it away...?

TimB

Your Tuscany, like mine, has replaceable bearing seats not races. The Tuscany is designed to use the Cane Creek IS-2 or IS-6 integrated headset.

It does not use the frame as a bearing surface merely as support. The bearings are contained within the headset which when worn out is simply replaced with another.

Any frame manufacturer that uses the frame as the bearing race is asking for trouble.
The Tuscany uses what is in effect, a Hidden headset.

Ritalin

Bikedud I'm with you on why I thought CK didn't like the integrated headsets.

my understanding is that the integrated headsets use the frame as a race.

internal headsets are "hidden"... with internal cups, i don' t really think CK had a problem with these other than "whats the point of this? you're not saving any weight and not gaining anything from these... so why change?"

TimB

the phrase Integrated headset has come to mean Hidden headset over the last couple of years.
When most manufacturers mention 'Integrated Headset' in their marketing they are in fact refering to a Hidden Headset, i.e. aheadset with it's own bearings races fitted into the headtube of the frame.

The first 'Integrated headsets has the larger race machined into the headtube of the frame. It was thought that the added stiffness this provided woul prevent wear problems.
However these were shortly replaced by headsets which featured a removable outer race (fitted inside the frame.

Cane Creek I believe was first out withtheir IS Integrated headsets which are completely selfcontained. These rest in specailly machined cups which locate the headset and provide the necessary support.

technical advantage?

Non IMO, perhaps a bit of additonal aerodynamic efficiency but I'm sure larger gaincan be made by improving flexibility and lowering your handlebars.

They do make hte bike look neater though.

I like the Cane Creek Design and willbe sticking to it. Seems very robust as it has taken a bit of abuse