The Smokester

I am going to buy a new bicycle for long distances. It will be comfortable, have fenders, at least a light rear rack and relatively low gearing. Optionally, it will have S&S couplers so it can be disassembled and packed into a 26" suitcase. I want it to come in under 20 lb but I am not a weight weenie and want a robust bike that will give good service. Based on experience, CF too fragile for everyday use.

I am of normal size (5' 10", 175 lb, 32" inseam) and so am probably buying off-the-rack. The candidate frames so far are: Co-Motion Nor'Wester, Gunnar Sport, Marinoni Sportivo and Salsa Casseroll but this thread is starting because your advice is needed.

Candidate components would be Shimano XTR drive train with 11/32 cassette except an LX crank with 48/36/26, Ritchey stuff (stem, seatpost, headset, etc.) and Selle An-Atomic LD seat. I am planning on using a set of existing hand-built, 32 hole, DT Swiss R1.1 wheels and using 700 x 25c or 28c tires.

Everything about the above is wide open for change. Obviously, price is not much of a hinderence since I tend to keep things a long time and this bike will probably be the last one I ever buy (for myself).

Advice is welcome on any aspect of this. Can I use my existing Shimano 10 speed compatible rear hub (130mm axle) with the xtr rear drive? Would you recommend brifters or should I stick with down tube shifters? Are there alternative frames I am not considering? What Ritchey stuff is the best (meaning light but robust) or is there a better light-weight component supplier out there? What are must-have braze-ons? What are your must-have features for light touring and 200 mile+ days/nights?

Please let me know.

bmike

Read all about my "OneBike" on the blog...
I went through this process in '06.

Things I would change -
I go either way on the brakes - I went with Shimano Long reach - some days I wish I had used cantilevers, other days I'm happy with the long reach. Canti's would have made the bike a bit more versatile in that I could have added wider tires and fenders. Due to geometry I'm limited to 28s with my fenders.

Triple / Double - I started riding compact cranks a while back and built my own blend based on terrain for this bike using a TA Carmina crankset. I could have gone TA triple and set the bike up more as a tourer - some days I think about it - but I have gears plenty low enough.

Shifting - I'm using Campy Ergo levers - I went carbon - keeps fingers warmer on cold LD rides, and I like the Campy feel and mechanicals. If I ever bust one I'll go to bar ends. Ideally I'd have friction front on the bar end, and Ergo and indexed on the rear.

Internal hub - I wish I knew about the Rolhoff before I built this bike, as I would have probably built this using that hub for the rear. I don't mind the system I have - but I've come to really appreciate the internal hub on my cargo / commuter.

Materials - I went Ti, would do it again - but some days I lament that I had originally planned 2 bikes - twin brothers - a Rando / Touring machine and a 'racy' machine out of steel. The manufacturer and several club riders talked me into Ti for what I wanted this bike to do.

SS couplers - wish I would have done this... as I was travelling alot when I first built the bike - but for the cost you need to travel quite a bit to pay back the couplers, labor, and cable splitters.

Richard Cranium

What was the question?

Bacciagalupe

A couple of options. If you're on a budget, get a Surly "Traveler's Check." It's a cross / all-rounder steel frame with S&S couplers. Can use 130 or 135mm hubs, has a fairly long wheelbase, can take fenders and racks. BB is kind of high, so it's perfect for gravel and dirt roads. Canti brakes only. With 25's or 28's, it's a very stable and comfortable ride. It is not especially fast, maybe 1-2 mph slower than a twitchy road bike.

Another one I'd consider is the Lemond Sarthe triple. Steel frame, carbon fork, nice components.

Some of the other options are much more expensive: Co-Motion makes excellent bikes and offers S&S. Rivendell may be OK, though I'd pass on the 650 bikes. Salsa Casseroll and Mercian Audax are also good choices.

I recommend either STI or bar-end shifters. I'd only explicitly choose downtube shifters for a dedicated touring bike.

thebulls

If I were in the market for a nice, steel, packable bicycle, I'd look hard at the Dahon Tournado, which is built around the Ritchey Breakaway system (https://www.dahon.com/us/tournado.htm). For a couple thousand bucks (last time I looked), it comes fully equipped including suitcase. I talked with someone on PBP who rides a Breakaway and he said it's a very nicely designed system. Lugged Tange Prestige tubing. 23 pounds, which is around the same as my Rambouillet or Gunnar with S&S Couplers. They describe it as being capable of loaded touring, which at least means it'll be plenty rugged enough for randonneuring. The Tournado has room for nice, comfortable tires up to 700x40C. Fenders, racks, etc. Ultegra drivetrain.

The Smokester

Yes. That would be "Would you please try to think out of the box?"

The Smokester

bmike,
What a fabulous bike you have come up with. Definitely might have to rethink my idea of the ideal. Your use of the bike is similar to what I have in mind.

I am interested in your comments about the brifters and your statement that you would go to barends...Can you please expand on this a bit? I use Ultegra brifters on my Roubaix and really love them. However, I am worried about dependability as they age and when riding in the rain on dirt roads.

I am also interested in your comments about the Rohlhoff. My LBS dismissed them out of hand as being expensive and heavy. However, I note that they have a gearing range of 526% whereas my touring triple has a range of only 108/22 = 490%. Weight is about 1800 gm so I am guessing that is adds a pound or two over deraillers (at work so I can't do the arithmetic at the moment). Why are you "sold" on them?

The Smokester

I looked at the Lemond Sarthe but I think it is a bit too agressive. Also, the chainstays are only 415 mm--the same as on my Roubaix--and probably that is too short for my purposes.

You like the STI's. How about reliability? I am not an abuser of fine machinery but still expect it to perform in less-than-ideal circumstances. Do you think they will be okay?

The Smokester

Never heard of them before. read the website and I will look into them further.

Thank you all for your comments.

Giro

More out of the box than you might want to consider, but recumbents can be particularly comfortable and fast for long distance. Volae high racer recumbents have the option of a two part frame (hand made by Waterford) that fits a suitcase LINK. Other high racers such as the aluminum frame Bacchetta's when equipped with a carbon fiber seat can be partially disassembled and fit inside a Sportube made for carrying skis or snowboards LINK and (go about halfway down the blog) LINK.

bmike

Thanks! Hoping to do some fast (for me) touring on it this year, as well as some brevets.

I like my ergo levers... no doubt. I think I'd like them more if I had a friction ergo for the front, and be able to leave the indexed for the rear. I've also ridden Ultegra for a Brevet series and liked them. Reliable, etc. I think my dream setup would be to have a friction bar end for the front and the indexed for the rear. As I'm riding a compact double with low gears I tend not to need to shift the front on the fly - I can usually time my shifts for when I'm sitting. And because I'm using the TA rings and I mix and match fairly often - friction shifting up front would be nice so I didn't have to fiddle with the adjustments each time.

I like the indexed rear as I often shift when standing during a climb - and having the ergo works great for this - shifting from the hood is so convenient.

Rain, dirt, etc, - I'm seeing some misadjustment or wear on the rear Ergo after 1 1/2 years now. Could be cables - but my gut tells me its something in the lever. Could be a fluke - but dropping from larger to smaller cogs in the rear it tends to overshift... a slight tap of the lever pushes the der back up a bit and it seems to stay and work fine. I think there is a return spring going bad - supposedly an easy fix with Campy. I ride in all weather, and on dirt. Not sure if the rain and winter slop and dust have done them in... if they ever go, I'll probably replace them with CaneCreek brakes and bar ends to try them for awhile.

I really like the Shimano Nexus 8 on my cargo / commuter bike. 1 cog, simple chainline, no derailers to mess with, etc. For a travel bike, think of how this will simplify set up, adjustment, etc. True, they are heavier - but for the simplification of all weather riding, and that large gear range, I'd bite. I might build a touring / rando bike with a Nexus, but after reading about the Rolhoff and the durability and design intent (all weather mountain biking) - I'd definitely switch. I just didn't know they existed when I built my bike! There are some folks that are car free in Boston that just had custom touring / rando / long distance bikes built around the SpeedHubs, and they reported good results.

Bacciagalupe

CrossCheck / Traveler's Check is definitely an option to consider, then. CS is 420/425. Any longer than that, and you're in touring bike territory.

One minor bit about the CC/TC -- the higher BB tends to throw off the sizing. You will probably want to use a frame 2cm smaller sized than on a road bike. IIRC "larger is better" when it comes to LD, since a too-small frame will feel twitchy.



Keeping in mind that I am not a mechanic: I have a lot of faith in STI, especially 105 or better. Bar-ends might be a little more robust, but for long distance I don't think it will make any difference.

Six jours

Ah, time for some pure, unadulterated opinion!

I like steel for comfort, although it's easy to find heavyish oversized steel that is kind of buzzy. IMO steel ought to be standard diameter or very thinwall OS. The Co-Motion, for example, is bulletproof, but tanklike and uncomfortable.

I also like fenders, but only metal ones. Plastic doesn't keep you dry, doesn't last long, and looks like hell.

Rear bags are okay but I've had better results with a front bag. It's nice not to have to stop every time you want something. The downside is that few bikes have geometry idealized for a front bag. All the bikes listed by the OP have "modern" geometry which rides very nicely until a front load is carried.

Not a fan of S&S couplers, as they often loosen on their own. Not all of them, but enough to make me leary. Moreover, a bike with fenders is going to be a PITA to pack no matter what.

Also don't like triples much, as they don't accomplish anything important, look bad, and complicate shifting. Bmike mentioned the TA crank, which I think is one of the perfect pieces of equipment. A 30-46 or thereabouts makes for a wonderful selection of gears for everyone except those who think they actually need a 53x11 for long distance. The 48x11 mentioned by the OP is good for 40 MPH at 120 RPM. I personally am not going to bother pedaling when going down a hill like that (or were you planning on the occasional field sprint while randonneuring?) and would rather have the simplified, closely-spaced gearing of a wide-range double and narrow-range cassette.

The wheels will be fine, although four extra spokes on each will increase durability for essentially no speed penalty.

Most folks get along well with 25-28mm tires but I prefer the 30mm Grand Bois Cypres tires, which roll better than almost any tire I've tried and are fantastically comfortable, though slightly more puncture-prone than average.

Good luck with the 20 pound deal.

Not a fan of brifters for anything but racing and wannabe-racing. I prefer the reliability of downtube indexing (Shimano still makes 9 and 10 speed downtube levers, at a fraction of the cost of brifters) which also allow friction if something goes haywire. Some people are worried about having to remove their hands from the bars, which strikes me as ludicrous and/or frightening, and some people worry about losing that extra tenth of a second per shift, which makes sense in a race but not on a century. IMO, of course.

I would personally look into the rando frames offered through Velo-Orange and Jitensha studios, which are relatively affordable and nearly ideal, IMO. If price is truly no object, Peter Weigle makes the best LD frames on the planet, as a far as I'm concerned.

And that's my pure unadulterated opinion!

Rowan

You've got to love pure, unadulterated, 100% self-opinionated opinion. Who am I to argue?

Oh, The Smokester, look at the St John St Cyclery website and see what Audax style bikes they have. It might be worth comparing geometries and materials. I know they're English, but they do have a lot of experience in designing these sorts of bikes, and might be a useful reference.

I doubt, also, that what you plan will the last bike you ever buy for yourself.

I'd suggest you check Sheldon Brown's site for answers on compatibility questions related to 9sp derailleurs on 10sp freehubs, but as a guess, I'd say you would be OK, but it would depend on the drop-out width of the new bike.

Hocam

I only have a few comments and have been holding off on this thread to see what everyone else says.

For the gearing, while having the triple gives you unnecessarily high gears for Brevets it does make the bike more versatile. Maybe you'd like to keep up with some friends on a group ride, or practice sprinting for interval training or maybe your favorite loop includes a steep descent and you want to snip a few of the seconds off your personal best. I have used every gear on mine, but the high is only 53-13.

For the wheels, I am not impressed by the DT Swiss rims, mainly because of their price. An off-center rear rim will build a far stronger wheel than a traditional symmetrical rim, for less cost than a DT Swiss. By placing the spokes closer to the left side, the tension of left side is increased from around 60% to close to 80% of the right side, better if you're using 135 mm spaced hubs. This makes for a significantly stronger rim that will last longer and help prevent broken spokes. Velocity and IRD both make off-center rims, and you may notice a few 'boutique' racing wheels have begun using this concept where low spoke counts make it a necessity (American Classic and Fulcrum are two I can think of).

The S&S couplers make a great deal of sense and despite what some say, plastic fenders do work quite well; my brother completed a 3,000 km. tour of eastern europe on plastic fenders and an S&S couplered Bilenky touring bike without problems. They're like anything else, if you don't tighten them properly and give them a check once in a while then of course they'll come loose.

The Smokester

Just a few quick comments before I leave for work:

I have considered recumbents and do have a plan to learn what the fuss is about. In discussions with friends it seems like learning how these perform will take more time and effort that I currently have but their time will come for me eventually.

I already have a Surly LHT which I dearly love. I have considered the Cross Check since a good friend of mine has a beauty and it's very comfortable for his commute. I think it is slightly too high and heavy to be ideal for LD purposes.

I really love the unadulterated opinion and expect no less. Thank you so much. You have made me reconsider the Co-Motion which was near the top of my list. I agree about the fenders being a PITA and will be taking them on and off as the seasons change. Regarding gearing, the range I am baselining to (48/36/26 and 11/32) is about the same as my Roubaix on the high end and is about 0.6 times on the low end. I originally planned a 44/32/24 but really feel this is too low (might regret this some day). I live in the N. California coastal mountains and there are lots of 5 mile runs at -1 to -2% (going with the prevailing wind) where one can easily maintain 30 mph so I think the gearing is not too high but high would be first to go if I have to compromise. I will post back with the real weight of the bike when it finally gets assembled.

Regarding the DT Swiss wheels, it might be right that they are an old fashioned design and over priced but I already have them. Still, they run like a Swiss watch. I got the Ti ratcheting skewers --very sexy. They have taken a few hits and survived intact. I also have an Ultegra wheelset which does have the rear spoke offset so I can intercompare...The latter are aero 16 and 20 spoke wheels front and rear respectively...Never have any trouble with them, either. The DT's have better braking surfaces so one does getting something overtly tangible for the huge difference in price.

I really hope the S&S couplers live up to my expectations since I guess that is the one thing I am committed to. Nobody around here seems to have them so no first-hand experience base to go on. The reservations expressed here are the first I have heard. Does anyone else know whether these are flawed?

I am checking the SJS website. I have used them in the past and they are great. I also checked about the cassette capacity on my current wheels and there is no problem with the hubs switching between mountain 9spd and road 10spd. I think I am changing my mind about brifters based on comments here and also the recent thread on long term equipment performance. I have had shifters go in the past (actually, cable problems) and always manage to limp home with some sort of lash-up...Or I can carry spare dt shifters.

Sorry for the mass mailing here rather than individual responses but I got to get going to work. I appreciate your efforts and knowledge in responding. I invite anyone to post if you can think of anything else I should be considering.

Cave

Consider Soma Smoothie ES frame. Seems on paper (on screen?) to be a good option for LD road.

I'm thinking of migtating parts from a tourer onto a relaxed road frame, probably a Soma or maybe a Surly crosscheck (just-one-bike has appeal but I don't like horizontal dropouts on a derailleur-equipped bike, no benefit and too much hassle) or maybe a thorn audax.

Any good custom framebuilders in your area?

Six jours

Bicycle Quarterly tested the "Nor'Wester Co-Pilot" and found that it weighed 28.8 pounds without lights and bags, that the heavy oversize tubing was overly stiff, and that it was difficult to ride in a straight line when the rider was tired. I have no personal experience with the bike, but this is a less-than-glowing review from what I consider a reliable source.

This is the one area where plastic fenders may outperform metal. Properly installed aluminum or stainless fenders are semi-permanent, although I'll bet Bmike will disagree!

The top gear listed is good for 38.5 MPH at a comfortable 110 RPM. The bottom gear will make for a stately 3.5 MPH at 60 RPM. The top gear is good for field sprinting with a 1/2/pro field, and the small for loaded touring up the inside of a well. The downside is massive jumps between cogs. That would drive me out of my mind, but you may be different. I need a gear that will allow me to go maybe 6 MPH up the worst walls, and I stop pedaling above 30 MPH. So for me, I can use a 46x14 as a top gear and a 30x25 at the bottom, which gives me very close steps between cogs -- one tooth increments most of the way, with a nine speed cassette and a 46x30 double. And of course, anyone who wants something different from what I want is a fool and probably a Nazi.

I used to coach a guy who ran an LBS specializing in tandems. He had a lot of bikes come through with couplers, and a lot of them gave trouble, which is how I came by my opinion on the subject. It was reinforced by, again, Bicycle Quarterly, which wrote about a test bike that rattled, flexed, and shifted poorly -- all problems which were eventually traced to a self-disengaging downtube coupler. And now matter how much it was tightened, it would work itself loose again.

A frame that disassembles itself seems like sort of a bad thing to me, but YMMV.

HTH!

bmike

Disagree? What is with 'semi' permanent. I had grand plans of pulling my Honjo's on and off - once they were on, they never came off! Pics that I linked to (more here) are from PF and AF. (pre-fendered and after fendered). I do get looked at crosseyed when I show up to a club event... but I'm usually the guy with the pump, spare tube, and tools, helping someone on the side of the road. And if it rains, I usually smile when people complain about their backsides.

I think playing with a gearing calculator here is important - as SJ has shown above. I built my drivetrain in a similar fashion - finding out how fast I can go at a given cadence and working down from there. Then starting from the bottom and working up. I do like smooth jumps - and when I use the 13-29 I always wish I had brought the 13-26 for the slightly closer spacing on the low end. I also own 4 pair of TA rings, which I can mix and match to the terrain and my conditioning - although these are going the way of my fenders and I've been leaving my lowest combo on the bike.

Six jours

Oh, I'd been under the impression that you took the fenders on and off frequently. I know that getting my aluminum fenders perfectly set up took several hours, and I DO NOT feel like making a habit of it! The plastics are a lot easier to install, but IMO that's primarily because it's impossible to get them set up properly so you may as well just throw them onto the bike and be done with it anyway. They'll be breaking soon enough under any circumstance, so who really cares?

At any rate, I've gotten so used to the look of nice alloy or stainless fenders that an LD bike without them looks odd to me. And 9 out of 10 comments that I get from the sport bike crowd are favorable. There was the one lady who asked me why I took the rain gutters off of my house and installed them on my bike, but after I pointed out the cottage cheese on her thighs she went away.

The Smokester

Okay. So now I'm waffling on the Shimano brifters since I really hate the protruding cables. It turns out that they are solving this problem in mid-'08 but only in ten speed. I am re-thinking my drive train to go with a rear road derailler and dt shifter until these new brifters come out.

Ahhh. The pursuit of perfection.

Six jours

I grew up racing with downtube friction and later indexing, and am absolutely comfortable with it. More recently, I used brifters for several years, and while I would not bother racing without them, for everything else the downtube stuff works brilliantly. Like I said, I still ride with the same people I always did, and have no more or less trouble keeping up with them than I would with with brifters. IOW, if I get dropped it's not because I can't shift with my brake levers.

bmike

yeah, it must be the drag from your SON...

The Smokester

Yes. I also have grown up with dt shifters and never had anything else until I got the Roubaix. I have dt shifters on my touring LHT and it is no bother. Above all, I really hate the cables protruding in front of the handlbars and that is what Shimano is going to fix later this year but only in 10sp.

bmike

campy...