Rejuvenator

Surly is going to offer the Big Dummy as a complete bike for 2009. The should help the cost of building it up, as other bikes (such as the LHT) offered a significant savings over building it up yourself. It will include V racks and snapdeck. No idea on price. The CC and LHT completes went up by @$120, so everything will be more expensive again next year...

vik 

Cool about the complete BDs. I wonder how the spec/price will compare with complete BDs offered by Xtracycle this year?

I'll be interested to see the new Surly colours in person. Funny thing is I just got to the point of really liking the utility blue LHTs and the colour is gone...lol...the new LHT colour does look pretty nice right off the bat though.

Rejuvenator

Yes--I have the green LHT and dig it just fine. However the cream looks/sounds pretty nice.

I'm interested in the price of the BD complete...could be interested...

penexpers

It won't be cheap considering they are using Mr Whirly cranks.

dwnptrl_777

No doubt.

But I loves my Mister Whirly cranks on the Goat!

penexpers

I was really really tempted by the Mr Whirly cranks but I wasn't able to justify the cost. Really nice cranks though.

Rejuvenator

I didn't see that on the Surly blog. I must have missed it.

santiago

"The KM and Big Dummy will be added as complete bikes (the KM as rigid single speed in both red and black), both utilizing our fine Mr. Whirly crankset. No, I don't have photos or other info up on the website yet, sorry, but it won't be too long. BD will of course include VRacks and Snapdeck."

Rejuvenator

A friend at the show checked out the Big dummy they had built. I'm not sure if that is the bike they will offer, but it was $2900. It was built up the right way, with Rolhoff rear hub, etc...

penexpers

$2900 for BD with Mr Whirly and Rohloff is a good deal.

vik 

Ya it's not a bad price for the spec, but it seems out of line with Surly's other complete bikes where the emphasis has been on smart component selection at an economical price point. Although I have a Rohloff on my Big Dummy you can't really argue that it is needed for a strong versatile cargo bike. A standard MTB drive train would be more than adequate and would keep costs low. After all anyone can buy a frame and throw together a pimped out ride - the purpose of the complete bikes is to let people throw a leg over a Surly at a savings.

Elkhound

IMHO, an internal hub gear makes more sense on a cargo/utility bike than a derailleur. After all, our kind of cycling takes place in all sorts of weather--rain, snow, sleet, mud, etc. It makes more sense to have the gears tucked neatly inside the hub than to have them exposed to the elements. Also, being able to shift from a standing position makes sense also, as it is not unlikely that the weight to be moved will have changed between stopping and starting (that is, you stop at the store, go in and make your purchases, load them on the bike; or, if you are making a delivery, you take the load off the bike before continuing--either way, the weight to be moved will have changed.)

Of course, a Rollhoff might be excessive. Unless one lives, as I do, in a very hilly area, a 7- or 8-speed internal hub gear should be quite sufficient.

dscheidt

I bet lots of BD are built up with an IGH. It's what I'd want on a utility bike: low maintenance, works in all weather, better chain life, simple. I think the rohloff is overkill, but maybe Surly is getting them at a good price? I don't know about the Mr Whirly cranks -- I thought there big advantage was being able to use a huge range of chainrings, and with an IGH, that's not such a big deal. I'd rather have a generator hub.

vik 

I'm not arguing that an IGH doesn't make sense otherwise people wouldn't use them. All I'm saying is a $1400 hub seems out of line with Surly's other complete bike choices. If an IGH makes sense for all weather riding you'd think they'd put one on the Long Haul Trucker as a touring bike has to ride in all weather. They didn't to keep costs down and make a LHT more affordable. T

surfimp

My thoughts on IGH have really changed since I finally put together my Xtracycle conversion about four months ago.

Originally I thought I "had" to have IGH, but honestly in SoCal we don't get much sleet or snow (or rain for that matter) and my old beat 21spd Exage 500 drivetrain, well worn and abused, is actually working out just fine. It's also light, I've got it set up in friction shifting mode (one of the advantages of old school Deore thumb shifters I guess?) and works just fine for my (probably pretty modest) cargo bike requirements.

My wife's Breezer has a Nexus 8 redband and it's really nice, but honestly I think the gear range is a little limited for what I'd want on a true utility bike. When riding my X I'm towing our Wike kiddie trailer at least 90% of the time (it's our minivan substitute after all) and I really, really like having the range afforded by a 21 speed drivetrain. I know there's some overlap and probably a Rohloff compares in an absolute sense, but I think even a 21 speed beats the range afforded by a Nexus 8.

So... to me, a properly-selected MTB triple with 9 or 10 speed cassette would be the most suitable, especially if the shifters spec'ed provide the option for friction shifting. Friction is way easy for me to deal with and while I guess it's not all that common anymore, it's a heck of a lot easier in terms of maintenance (set the endpoints and you're pretty much done). If my old lowend Exage is any indicator, anyways...

Just some thoughts from someone who had the opportunity to re-think the derailler solution

Steve

dscheidt

It's a $1400 hub at retail. (And actually, a quick look shows prices around 1100.) What's it cost QBP, who own surly, and who are one of the biggest suppliers of parts in the US? They're making money selling them to the shops who are selling them.

Elkhound

Other parts of this planet aren't so lucky.

I was born in Michigan and grew up in Minnesota and Wisconsin. What I don't know about nasty weather isn't worth knowing.

EuroJoe

2900$ thats almost a bakefiets

coldfeet

Darn tootin' it's a good deal, It's more than I have available though, I'm off to see about a second job.

Dan Burkhart 

Here's the specs.
Headset- Richy Logic Comp
Handlebar- Surly Torsion Bar
Brake levers- Avid Speed Dial 7
Brakes - Avid BB7
Crankset/BB - Surly Mr. Whirly 48/36/26
Saddle - WTB SST
Cassette- LX-M580 9 sp 11-34
Hubs - Surly front, XT rear
Rims- Salsa Gordo 36 hole
Front der.- LX
Rear der. - LX
Shifters - LX
Spokes DT Swiss 14g
Tires -Schwalbe Big Apple 26 X 2.0
Pedals - not included
Xtracycle kit, Snapdeck, left and right V-racks left and right freeloader bags.
Price- TBA
Nice build, but we'll see how good a value when they give us the pricing. I'm also thinking a compact crankset would be better.

vik 

The $1400+ is retail for the disc version + chain tensioner + tandem cables - all of which will be needed. Sure QBP can get the hub as cheap as anyone, but that also applies to MTD derailleur drivetrains. So they can offer a BD with Rohloff that will be a deal, but still out of reach for many people or they can offer a BD with derailleurs that many more can afford and let those folks who want a $1400 hub buy one a la carte.

As much as IGHs make sense some of you are acting like people haven't and don't use derailleurs successfully all winter and for off road MTBing. They work, they are cheap and they are easy to service.

To my mind it makes way more sense to get a complete BD at the lowest price possible for a decent build and get people riding them.

vik 

Thanks Dan - that's a sensible build - much like the other Surly completes.

Rejuvenator

Yea--that build looks much more spot-on with the Surly philosophy. I have a complete LHT and I love the choices they made. Except the seat.

Elkhound

Where are you getting $1,400 for just the hub? Even a Rolhoff doesn't cost that much. And really, if one goes for IHG's, one doesn't have to go for a Rolhoff--one can get a 7- or 8-gear Shimano or Surmy-Archer for a lot less than a Rolhoff, which except in mountainous areas like where I live is quite enough.

And yes, one can use derailleurs in nasty weather; my other two bikes have them. But they get so dirty, and the dirt and grit wear on the gears, and they are a bear to clean, and the chains start to jump and skip, and with any sort of rough handling the chain would pop off if you looked at it cross-eyed, and not being able to shift from a stopped position--all-in-all, they are very aggrivating.

Back in the old days when hub gears were only available in three speeds, the derailleur's capacity for five or seven speeds, or with a double or triple chainring, ten or fourteen or fifteen or twenty-one was a definate advantage. (Not as great an advantage as it seemed, as so many of the gear ratios were redundant, but an advantage.)

No, give me an IGH any day; the late, great Sheldon Brown agreed.

coldfeet

So the bit about $2900 with a Rohloff was not true?