Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here!

Search
Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 06-05-14, 06:54 PM
  #6226  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 752 Times in 342 Posts
bummer. I could use an extra one
gsteinb is offline  
Old 06-05-14, 07:04 PM
  #6227  
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd just like to read my battery.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 06-06-14, 11:05 PM
  #6228  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
hey @andysti & @globecanvas--
headed out for a MTB ride tonight (5.5 weeks post-op!) and figured i'd share some info. i recorded power and calculated TSS. then i discarded that channel and uploaded the file training peaks to see what hrTSS was computed. it was an "easy" ride, meaning i was out for a cruise and just did the work necessary to get over hills.

actual TSS = 49.1
hrTSS = 74.5

that's a pretty big error in relative terms and this was basically 1h15 of fairly easy riding--but no big deal for performance management if it's an isolated event. if you're doing a 3- or 4-hour MTB ride or lots of shorter rides, you can see how things could go wrong.

now, i'd ridden on the road for a few hours beforehand, so it is possible HR was elevated (don't think so, but HR is a bit higher vs power during recovery).

attached 2 files to show how variable power (yellow line) is on the MTB vs a road ride earlier in the day. even outside on variable terrain, it is pretty easy to keep power in a pretty narrow band. i believe that these varied efforts reduce the accuracy of hrTSS. when there are lots of short spikes in terrain the hrTSS calculation can think you're still working when you're coasting.

& .

more importantly...it was really nice dirt riding tonight.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 06-06-14, 11:08 PM
  #6229  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb
bummer. I could use an extra one
sit tight for a couple of months. more pc7s will appear on the used market when the 8 rolls out. still not expecting any availability in the USA before august at the earliest.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 06-07-14, 08:02 AM
  #6230  
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by shovelhd
I'd just like to read my battery.
I read mine all the time

CR-2032
+


a classic.


I've given up on HR altogether. It was only ever a confirmation that my my TSB/perceived fatigue was right-ish. One less strap to worry about.

Last edited by Ygduf; 06-07-14 at 08:06 AM.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 07-07-14, 03:51 PM
  #6231  
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times in 250 Posts
I'm convinced that once you learn how to use the Flexicharts, there really is nothing that comes close to Cyclinganalytics. Maybe I haven't given GC to WKO much of a shot but the ability to make custom graphs out of pretty much any data point is huge.

Or maybe I've been too lazy to figure the others out.
furiousferret is offline  
Old 07-09-14, 08:03 PM
  #6232  
Senior Member
 
Wesley36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Did ZCIs on hilly terrain a few days ago - when I was riding, the intervals did not feel that hard, but the next 24 hours of recovery, I was feeling it.

Quick question - being that the terrain was hilly, I was able to keep my lap avg power where I wanted to, but my power output was not steady or constant at all. Should I try to find a flatter route to do ZCIs on to keep the power more constant, or just don't worry about it?
Wesley36 is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 01:02 AM
  #6233  
Farmer tan
 
f4rrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 7,986

Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts
Hey guys, I'm a PM noob and just got a stages and use it with Strava and Golden Cheetah. I'm having a bit of trouble picking the right value for FTP.
In Golden Cheetah, the CP curve at 20min has one value (371) but the "best" value is 354. The CP at 1hr is 364 and the best is 322.
Strava, on the other hand estimates FTP using their power curve at 369.

Any ideas which value I should actually use as the basis for setting training zones?
f4rrest is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 01:31 AM
  #6234  
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times in 250 Posts
For me, its best to use .95 of your 20 minute power. Strava has been close for me, but CP value isn't FTP, its a value based on your 3 minute and 20 minute numbers. If one is not along a natural arc then CP will be way off.
furiousferret is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 04:33 AM
  #6235  
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Do a proper test, especially since this is all new to you.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 07:39 AM
  #6236  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Note that nailing your exact FTP is not important unless you have a 40K TT coming up. Test, get a number, set zones and train to the zones. Once you spend some time with the zones, you'll know whether your FTP estimate came in high or low and can slide the zones a bit to accommodate. After that, you can always just work do the test, then slide the zone numbers according to your last set, then see how things feel.

The most important thing is a repeatable FTP test, and everyone is different here. My favorite is a trainer-based MAP test, because it's super consistent and sensitive to fitness changes for me -- no real FTP comes out of it, but I can set zones fine. On the other hand, I've lately been doing a 5' and 20' test in the same week, then using MONOD to get a zone-setting number. That's been consistent too, but much more painful than a MAP test.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 07:41 AM
  #6237  
Senior Member
 
Wylde06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,208

Bikes: Cannondale Six13

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets
MAP test.
I know ive seen this somewhere before..but what is a MAP test?
Wylde06 is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 07:47 AM
  #6238  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Midwest
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by f4rrest
Hey guys, I'm a PM noob and just got a stages and use it with Strava and Golden Cheetah. I'm having a bit of trouble picking the right value for FTP.
In Golden Cheetah, the CP curve at 20min has one value (371) but the "best" value is 354. The CP at 1hr is 364 and the best is 322.
Strava, on the other hand estimates FTP using their power curve at 369.

Any ideas which value I should actually use as the basis for setting training zones?
Pretty sure the "best" values you are seeing are numbers that you have actually hit for those times. So - if you actually hit 322 for an hour... and a best 354 for 20 minutes.... I would say taking .95 of your 20 (as has been suggested).... would get you pretty dang close. Maybe 335-340ish.

I would suggest trying to confirm the 20 minute number by doing a test for that timeframe and see where you land.
clones2 is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 08:01 AM
  #6239  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by Wylde06
I know ive seen this somewhere before..but what is a MAP test?
This is where I got my start: Alex's Cycle Blog: MAP Testing - where failure is a success...

Last edited by waterrockets; 07-11-14 at 08:06 AM.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 08:06 AM
  #6240  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Also, if you drop this text into a new .html file, and open it in your favorite browser, enter your starting power, you will have a timer that tells you your current power target during the test.

EDIT: damnit, replace ** with a right hand curly brace that BF won't let me type

Code:
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">


var ms = 0;
var state = 0;
var watts = 200;
var rate = 5;
var interval = 12; /* 5 watts every 12 seconds */
var lastRamp = 0;


function startstop() {
   if (state == 0) {
      state = 1;
      then = new Date();
      then.setTime(then.getTime() - ms);
      lastRamp = ms;
   ** else {
      state = 0;
      now = new Date();
      ms = now.getTime() - then.getTime();
      document.stpw.time.value = ms / 1000;
   **
**


function swreset() {
   state = 0;
   ms = 0;
   watts = 200;
   lastRamp = 0
   document.stpw.time.value = ms;
   document.stpw.power.value = watts;
**


function display() {
   setTimeout("display();", 50);
   if (state == 1)  {now = new Date();
      ms = now.getTime() - then.getTime();


      intervalTime = (ms - lastRamp) / 1000;
      if (intervalTime > interval) {
         watts = watts + rate;
         lastRamp = ms;
      **


      document.stpw.time.value = ms / 1000;
      document.stpw.power.value = watts;
   **
**
 
window.onload=display
</SCRIPT>




<CENTER>
<FORM NAME="stpw">
Time:
<INPUT TYPE="text" Name="time">
Power:
<INPUT TYPE="text" Name="power">
<INPUT TYPE="BUTTON" Name="ssbutton" VALUE="Start/Stop" onClick="startstop()">
<INPUT TYPE="BUTTON" NAME="reset" VALUE="Reset" onClick="swreset()">
</FORM>
</CENTER>
waterrockets is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 08:35 AM
  #6241  
Farmer tan
 
f4rrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 7,986

Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by shovelhd
Do a proper test, especially since this is all new to you.
I plan to, but I'm usually nursing various Old Guy pains to hit it hard again in the next few days.
f4rrest is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 08:43 AM
  #6242  
Farmer tan
 
f4rrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 7,986

Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by clones2
Pretty sure the "best" values you are seeing are numbers that you have actually hit for those times. So - if you actually hit 322 for an hour... and a best 354 for 20 minutes.... I would say taking .95 of your 20 (as has been suggested).... would get you pretty dang close. Maybe 335-340ish.

I would suggest trying to confirm the 20 minute number by doing a test for that timeframe and see where you land.
This makes a lot of sense and what I'll do for now.

To clarify, does the "20 minute" number equal the average power for the entire 20 minute interval (even if, for example, the 3 second power dips low for a minute or two)? Say you're testing and have a "350" number in mind... you're watching the 3-second value jump around a bit... 355... 360... 340..., etc. but in the end the average is we're concerned about, correct?
f4rrest is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 09:07 AM
  #6243  
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yes. Average is what you want. Pace accordingly.

If you can train at tempo, you should be able to test.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 12:44 PM
  #6244  
Senior Member
 
HOWSER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Though I do not have a power meter now it is next on my list to purchase. I had an opportunity to recently race (1 crit, 1 circut) on a borrowed bike with a powermeter (Quark).

The stats below are from the 1st race, a crit with many tight corners and pitchy hills.

Can this data be used to estimate FTP? I assume the best test would be a flat TT?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Time: 51:25:00
Moving Time: 51:21:00
Elapsed Time: 53:52:00
Avg Speed: 20.2 mph
Avg Moving Speed: 20.2 mph
Max Speed: 29.1 mph
Elevation Gain: 1,102 ft
Elevation Loss: 1,125 ft
Min Elevation: 953 ft
Max Elevation: 1022 ft
Avg Power: 335 W
Max Power: 1,282 W
Max Avg Power (20 min): 282 W
Normalized Power (NP): 338 W
Work: 761 kJ
HOWSER is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 01:31 PM
  #6245  
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would not estimate power from a criterium. AP/NP is all over the map. I would not estimate it at all.

Test.

Borrow that power meter again.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 01:42 PM
  #6246  
Senior Member
 
HOWSER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shovelhd
I would not estimate power from a criterium. AP/NP is all over the map. I would not estimate it at all.

Test.

Borrow that power meter again.

That's about what I had figured. Thanks for the reply!
HOWSER is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 01:49 PM
  #6247  
Senior Member
 
Dunbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,078

Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I would test and shoot for the NP number from the race plus 5%. BTW, how can your average power for 51 minutes be 335w but your max average 20 minute power only be 282w?
Dunbar is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 01:57 PM
  #6248  
Senior Member
 
HOWSER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dunbar
I would test and shoot for the NP number from the race plus 5%. BTW, how can your average power for 51 minutes be 335w but your max average 20 minute power only be 282w?
I don't know. I thought that was odd too.

The race the next day was very similar with a huge disparity between the two numbers.
HOWSER is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 02:15 PM
  #6249  
Senior Member
 
Dunbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,078

Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by HOWSER
I don't know. I thought that was odd too.
If it was really punchy than I wouldn't trust the average power number. For AP/NP to be that close you have to be riding very steady.
Dunbar is offline  
Old 07-11-14, 02:45 PM
  #6250  
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 9,107
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by HOWSER
I don't know. I thought that was odd too.

The race the next day was very similar with a huge disparity between the two numbers.
Originally Posted by Dunbar
I would test and shoot for the NP number from the race plus 5%. BTW, how can your average power for 51 minutes be 335w but your max average 20 minute power only be 282w?
didn't account for zeroes in power, only for when he was pedalling

Originally Posted by shovelhd
I would not estimate power from a criterium. AP/NP is all over the map. I would not estimate it at all.

Test.

Borrow that power meter again.
i was told differently by a certain cranky master's racer. 340W of NP for an hour, i'd think he should be at least 300-310W for FTP. at least it provides a good starting point for the test
echappist is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.