tom cotter

Pros and cons of each?

For example I heard from one dealer that the Brompton starts to get tight for tall riders at about 6'2''.

hearing that made realize that there is more that i don't know about these bikes than I do know.

I'm looking for a basic folder that has the quick fold feature for commuting etc. help!

THX

awetmore

I'm 5'11" and find the Brompton to be pretty short in the top tube.

I'd suggest trying both. There are more and more stores in the US carrying both of them (or two stores nearby that have them). For instance in Seattle you can find the Brompton at Folding Bicycles West and the Tikit a few blocks down the street at Dutch Bikes. In Portland you can find the Brompton at Clever Cycles and the Tikit at Coventry Cycles (I think).

They are both very nice bikes. The Brompton prioritizes small folding. The Tikit prioritizes quick folding and ride. I also like that the Tikit uses almost all standard bike components (the only exception is the front hub which is narrow...just like the Brompton). The Brompton has almost no standard components. That helps them get the small fold but also means you get a lower gearing range and brakes which aren't as good.

alex

Speedo

^^^

What Alex said...

Plus, there is an extension seatpost for the Brompton that helps if you are tall. It seemed to want to keep slipping down for me though.

Speedo

14R 

If you are not planning on traveling by plane often, the Tikit might be a better bike for you.

vik 

One thing I like about the Tikit is it can be had in 3 different sizes as well as built for heavier riders. This means you are not trying to get comfortable on a one size fits all design typical for folding bikes.

I ride a large Tikit and fits me like a full sized bike would which I really appreciate.

I've posted a bunch of info about the Bike Friday Tikit here and here.

invisiblehand

Technically, I am not quite 6', but that isn't what I tell people in person ...

After I hurt my knee, I modified my stroke such that my knee bent less and such my leg reach was extended somewhat. I found that the regular Brompton seat post too short. Moreover, the reach was never quite right for me either. So unless you are willing to putz around a bit with the telescoping seatpost and/or some other modifications for the handlebar, I found the ergonomics fairly limiting. My wife, however, enjoyed it quite a bit. I also think that the standard gearing choices -- at least historically -- are quite limiting too. On the positive side, I thought that it could carry a good deal of stuff in a way that was seamless with the folding process. With good roller wheels I also found that transporting the bike while folded worked well too. Of course, the folded package is quite small while the wheelbase is pretty reasonable. In the end, we decided to sell them. If the bike works out ergonomically for a person, I do recommend the bike for commuting and utility cycling. Especially if one is going to travel on trains and buses too.

I have only test ridden the tikkit ... I thought it rode well and folded quickly ... but I really can't add anything meaningful to what others already wrote.

feijai

I own a tikit, but I have not tested the Brompton enough: so take the statements below with a grain of salt. Though I believe they are all correct.

Brompton pros:

• It's been around far longer. The tikit is only two years old and its design has not been as well tested. Though its frame warranty is assuring.
• It folds into a more compact space (about half the volume of the tikit). This is not to be discounted.

Tikit pros:

• Handles and rides much better. This may be due to poor trail on the Brompton, among other factors. The Tikit steers more stably, can be ridden without hands, and can be ridden stably out of the saddle. The Brompton cannot.
• Has "real bike" geometry. The Brompton's top tube is very short, resulting in a poorer riding experience over long distances. The tikit comes in three top tube lengths, and is better structured overall, particularly with the length of the rear wheel with respect to the seat. Most people will find the tikit a better fit: and any male over 5'8" will find the tikit to be a much better fit.
• Folds and unfolds extremely rapidly, particularly the Tikit hyperfold. If rapid folding if your goal, the tikit is the clear choice.
• Designed to roll on its front wheel when folded; the Brompton is instead outfitted with small skateboard-style wheels which IMHO are only usable on flat surfaces like in a shopping mall.
• Is highly customizable with standard parts, both at Bike Friday and after the fact. Bike Friday has a wider range of options, and nearly everything on the bike is standard. This is also a big deal if you need to repair your bike in an unusual location. In contrast, the Brompton is particularly poor in this regard: almost nothing is standard.
• Has far better brakes (and standard ones).
• Has adjustable handlebar height.
• Has quick-release wheels. Is easier to repair popped tires.
• Bike Friday has a lifetime warranty on its frames and is famous for going to extreme lengths to keep its customers happy. I know this personally.

I do not think the Brompton has much of an advantage at all when it comes to flying. The tikit packs relatively straightforwardly, certainly better than my Dahons do. Unlike folding to go into shops or on trains, packing for an airplane isn't every hour: it's fine if it takes a few minutes. In this video, Rob English packs the whole thing in eight minutes, including lots and lots of stopping for explanation. And as Oldies pointed out in another thread, the Brompton will not fit in a standard suitcase. The tikit will, and easily.

As I've posted elsewhere (plus pretty pictures), I am of the opinion that the tikit is a better bike in almost all respects except for compactness. The Brompton by necessity sacrifices a great deal in order to achieve extreme compactness, but if that is a crucial need (and it often is), Brompton is the way to go. Otherwise, it's hard to argue for the Brompton over the Tikit.

Yiorgos05

Does anyone regularly take either the Tikit or the Brompton on the subway in NYC, especially during rush hour? Does that work well? If anyone has tried both bikes, can that someone say if one works better than the other for a commute that includes a crowded subway ride?

makeinu

I agree with pretty much everything said here except I don't think it's fair to say that the Brompton is really half the volume of the tikit. Multiplying maximum LxWxH and calling it "volume" is a bit like comparing a french fry carton to a box of frozen french fries from the supermarket:

Looks big and if you compute LxWxH it seems like it is big, but it really isn't.

The Brompton gets a freebie because it's square. All other folding bikes are smaller than the LxWxH calculation admits and smaller than they look. How small are they really? I don't know, maybe someone more motivated than myself can make molds out of all the popular folding bikes (han solo style...pun intended) and fill the molds with water to find the actual volumes, but my feeling is that bikes like the Curve and DT Mini are as small as, if not smaller, than the Brompton in actual volume and the tikit is perhaps just slightly larger.

Now that's not to say the Brompton's square shape doesn't have some value. It does and it may fit places other bikes won't because of that shape (then on the other hand other bikes may fit places Brompton's won't because of their shapes), but it really depends on where you need to put the bike.

So let's not confuse shape with actual volume.

Check with David Lam at bfold. He is without a doubt the most knowledgeable folding bike dealer in NYC and has a stellar reputation for customer service.

Dahon.Steve

The best question of the hour!

Thanks to Transportation Alternatives, ALL bicycles are allowed to board during rush hour! Yes, they fought hard to make that happen and thank goodness they did.

However, I don't think you would want to bring a full size bike on the New York City subway unless you can board early in the route because once it gets packed, there is no room even for suitcase! There's no question you can bring either Tikit or Brompton on the subway, but if you had a choice, it would clearly be the Brompton. The Tikit folds larger than a Dahon 20' inch bike.

When it comes to multimode commuting, there are three bikes you would want to board on a bus. The Strida, CarryMe and Brompton. I would prefer to board a bus with the Dahon Speed 8 than a Tikit because that large package would be hard to find space on a bus.

LWaB

Anatoly's comparison is just one person's opinion. Here is another - I ride out of the saddle on my Brompton with no concerns and can ride no hands, provided I don't have too much weight in the front pannier. YMMV.

timo888 

The Brompton has a narrow rear spacing which limits gearing and internal gear hub options, whereas the Tikit has a standard OLD and supports everything in the marketplace. At this time, the only multi-speed (>= 5) IGHs that fit the Brompton are those made by Sturmey-Archer. For commuting (the OP's criterion) an IGH is generally regarded as better --i.e. cleaner and more compact-- than a derailer.

From the blog of the alex who responded above:
https://blogs.phred.org/blogs/alex_we...-hub-gear.aspx

"I bought the drum brake version of the [SRAM 7] hub and removed the stock V-brake. The drum brake should work well in this application and will allow the rim to last nearly forever." [emphasis added]

bykerouac

Sometimes I get caught with the evening rush going home, where the trains are packed like sardines. The folded Brompton goes between my legs and together we make a small footprint, hardly inconveniencing the other commuters. The Tikit, with it's longer dimension, would be harder to squeeze in. Workable, but more inconvenient in this regard.

+1. While Anatoly has some excellent opinions, it is by no means true for everyone. The Brompton can be tweaked for a better fit and ride. I understand that the Tikit is an excellent bike, hell I am thinking of getting one, but it would do well for the Tikit proponent to experience the Brompton first before declaring that the Tikit is an overly superior bike. Both are excellent IMHO.

Jagee

Really? Does anyone have any pics of a Tikit next to a 20" Dahon? That would be interesting to see.

Also, I think the Downtube Mini has its place in multimode commuting. In a comparison between Brompton and the Tikit, I think it's worth adding to the equation. It's weight, gearing with the IGH, folding size and $ accessibility (all well documented in other threads) merit (another) mention here.

feijai

I own two 20" Dahons and a tikit. Sadly I have no pictures (the Dahons are now out of the country)...maybe Vik could do one with his D7. I'd say they're about the same ballpark. The Dahons are one or two inches shorter when folded, but are also one or two inches taller. The Tikit is a bit wider due to the handlebars folding on the outside. It depends on your handlebar choice. The Tikit is rather easier to get around folded than the Dahons. But my dahons (Helios) are 4 pounds lighter.

cyclistjohn

Sadly, that is a second hand report. I've been riding a Brompton for the past 3 months, & as the model I have has a mere 3 gears, I've found on some uphills it's easier to stand out of the saddle. That feels no different than doing the same on big wheel bikes. Maybe the original reporter is exceptionally tall?

Could you please expand on that?

Side by side, & actually measured, my M3L is the same wheelbase as a "large" (whatever that means) Dahon Hammerhead 7 frame, so in what way is the Brompton "short"?

Again, what does that mean? Can you please quantify that statement?

EvilV

I completely agree with that - I only have the Merc, but it's the same in this regard. I can easily get out of the saddle and hammer it uphill which means I can save my knees a lot of bother. It feels very secure like that, although I do it mostly with a non-folding spiked pedal which gives me pretty good confidence that I won't slip off and crash (as I'm out of the saddle).

makeinu

Yeah, but as you can see in this pic from vik's website there is a plenty of space under the rear wheel to put your feet under the tikit (not sure where it is, but there's another pic somewhere of rob english doing this on a bus):


The Brompton is good and the square fold is pretty impressive if you want to look at it from afar. However, the boxy shape is a double edged sword: boxes are good because they don't interact with their surroundings and boxes are bad because they don't interact with their surroundings.

You still gotta put your feet somewhere and I've had a similar problem when it comes to carrying the Brompton because the most balanced place to grab the main tube is completely pressed against the rear wheel with no room for my fingers. So I don't think the Brompton always has the best fold like people say it does. It depends on ones needs and personal preferences.

Plus there just isn't that much variation in the sizes of the bikes. For example, I don't think a layman who is unable to identify folding bike make/models whizzing across intersections would be able to tell the difference in size even between a Brompton and a 20" Dahon sitting at the opposite end of a subway platform if the two weren't side by side.

Personally the deal breaker for me is that regardless of how these bikes fit on a sedentary subway ride I'd rather lock bikes of their size outside at most destinations and I have no intention of leaving that kind of money on the sidewalk. Plus even in NYC it's not rush hour all the time.

bykerouac

Sorry, but judging with that photo, it would be difficult to bring that on the subway during rush hour, especially when the trains are running late and there is a build up of commuters raring to go home. In this instance, a Brompton would be the ideal bike to have. My schedule is such that I have to take a crowded train perhaps 3 times a week, and like I said before, with me straddling the folded Brompton while standing, with one hand hanging on to the hand rail, one hand carrying a bag of groceries, my footprint isn't that much larger than that of a Brompton-less commuter. With the Tikit, you will have to hold it up with one hand, and since it is at your side instead of being straddled, you have a much larger footprint. I will try to take a photo soon if I have the chance.

makeinu

I understand what you're saying, but that photo isn't intended to show how one would hold it on the subway. The girl isn't even really standing next to the bike (she's holding it way out in front of her).

The reason I posted it was so you could see all the space there is in back when the bike is at this orientation so one could basically stand under the bike or put your grocery bag under the bike (as an alternative to over the bike like you would do with the Brompton). Like I said, there's a photo of Rob English (the designer) standing on the bus with his feet and legs mostly under the tikit, but obviously if one doesn't actually stand under the bike (like the girl in the photo isn't standing under it) then the footprint is larger, just as if you stood next to instead of over your Brompton.

Plus you could always lay it down and stand over it like you do with your Brompton and, not to be rude, but no matter how much more trouble it seems the extra size would cause, the fact of the matter is that there would only be mere inches of difference (in truth probably less than the difference between you standing over your Brompton and the Bromptonless commuters).

Once again, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as rude, but if you want to see a big difference in footprint then compare my small 8" folder to your Brompton:

If the Brompton were really smaller than the tikit then I would buy one, but IMO shaving off a few inches and slightly changing the shape makes hardly any difference unless you only use the bike at rush hour (which, of course, many people do):
Z%2BFolded%2Btikit%2Bw%2Bmedal%2Br.JPG
But then again, my preference is that if the nominally smaller Brompton is such a great benefit then how much more useful is a sizeable difference like the one achieved by my small 8" folder. I would never want to get sweaty at rush hour anyway, so I'd rather take my 8 incher at rush hour and a cheap 20" bike to lock outside when the nominal size advantage of the Brompton isn't disproportionately magnified. However, I guess my philosophy won't work for folks who are looking for familiarity and emulation of big wheels.

feijai

So you got me interested in doing this right.

First I set out to settle what the trail values were. As I understand it, bigger trail, generally stabler bike. Was the Tikit's more? It appears so, by maybe 35%. The bikes have the same head tube offset (72 to 72.5 degrees). Alex Whetmore says that his Tikit's got 30-35 mm of trail. I'm getting 35 mm too. Cycling Plus magazine says the Brompton has 26 mm of trail. A typical porteur has about 40 mm of trail, and a typical road bike has about 55 mm of trail. So there you go.

Next the wheelbases: Cycling Plus above says 40.9 inches for the Brompton. I'm getting just over 40 for the size-Medium Tikit, so it's about the same or very slightly less. The Size-large should be another 5cm (2in) longer, the size-Small 5cm shorter.

For the rest of the geometry, I did a picture overlay comparison. I've overlaid what I *believe* is a size-Medium Tikit and a standard Brompton. I sized them so that the wheelbases (that is the axles) are very close, the wheel widths are the same, and the wheels hit the ground in the same spot. There's some slight perspective stretching (5%?) on the Brompton front wheel due to the location of the camera. The red dot indicates the location of the Brompton's bottom bracket before I overlaid the Tikit. Click on the picture icon below to see the full picture.

foo.jpg

No, those aren't superthick Tikit handlebars: it's the gear shifter.

Here's what I get from this picture. First, the Brompton's crank is an easy 2 inches higher than the Tikit! Wow! Is this because of the fold geometry of the Brompton? So I'm guessing I'm a fair bit lower to the ground on the Tikit. Second, the Brompton's handlebars are a good 4 inches closer horizontally, relative to the crank or seat position. This is mostly because of the Brompton's handlebar style (and no other options avoid it), but even if they had the same exact style, it appears the Brompton'd still be at least 1, maybe 1.5 inches shorter due to the short top tube relative to the wheel axle. Third, the Brompton's got a much taller rear triangle.

I'll go out to Bikes@Vienna and do some testing on Bromptons and compare to the Tikit and report. But overall, it looks like the size Medium Tikit's a good bit stabler than the Brompton, and in its standard configuration has a better fit. Even the size-Small tikit appears to be roomier than the Brompton, due to those handlebars!

I think I was correct.

jur

I doubt the Brompton BB is a full 2" higher. When seated, the rubber block compresses perhaps 1/2", so the BB drops perhaps 1". Paralaxx error may also have magnified the amount. I would call them as being similar.

The Brompton website lists the wheelbase as 41.2".

makeinu

You can't really compare the two in just pictures and specs.

When it comes down to I think everyone can agree that the major distinction is that the tikit is more refined and standard bicycle while the Brompton is a more refined and standard piece of luggage. However, the two are very similar so it boils down to what your priorities are, how strict your requirements are, and where you're more willing to deal with "rough edges".

Want to change the fit on your Brompton? You'll have to work a bit harder. Want to take your tikit on a crowded subway? You'll have to work a bit harder. But basically any actual role you want to fill with one you should be able to fill with the other.

piggy

The Tikit does not work too well during rush hour. At least from my experience on the F train. Now that I have drop bars it makes it even worse that the shower cap no longer fits.

I have seen a gentleman with a Brompton on 2 occasions, and he had the folded package on the floor between his legs; which seemed to work quite well.

iamstuffed

I have both a Tikit and a Brompton. Having ridden both, here are some thoughts.

1. Even though the Tikit can be rolled around while folded, you need forearms the size of Popeye's to roll it any significant distance. The weight distribution of the Tikit when folded forces the bike to lean to one side, forcing the rider to twist to keep it level to roll. The Brompton, with OEM rollers, sucks to roll while folded even more. I put roller blade wheels instead of the EZ Wheels on the Brompton and I prefer to roll the Brompton than the Tikit. My girlfriend rolls her Brompton everywhere and she weighs 112 lbs. It really is effortless on the Brompton. Also, on the Tikit, the chainring is still precariously close to your pant leg while rolling, unless you roll it from the right, keeping the chainring guard between your pant leg and the chain.

2. People keep dismissing the size difference between the two as insignificant. I consider the size difference incredible for my uses. I can fit only one Tikit into the trunk of my VW Golf. I can fit my TWO bromptons and still have room for at least one more in the same trunk. I could probably stick a fourth one in there, but I have not tried it. People keep spitting off dimensions of the Tikit while folded, without the front rack!

3. The Tikit's chainring is very close to the ground while folded. I've had a couple incidences where the bike tipped over or became lopsided, and I had to clean the chain grease off white carpet. I've never had that issue with the Brompton. Even though people would not put a bike on lighter color carpet, it's something to consider.

4. The Tikit, at least the older ones (one of which, I have), needs adjustments out the wazoo to keep it locked while folded and to keep it stable while folded. I have an older style Tikit, and constantly have to keep bending the locking latch that clicks to lock the bike while folded. If it becomes too relaxed, it won't stay folded if I lift the bike. Newer style Tikits have a different latch mechanism, but I doubt it's dramatically better. It's still a latch that slides over a peg and locks. It's still a piece of metal that bends to lock. My dad has the newer style, so I guess I can try it out next time I visit him. I have the rear rack too, and while it helps stabilize the bike while folded, if the ground is anything but level, it's a pain to keep it upright. The Brompton is very stable while folded, but since I put roller wheels, I need to place it in such a way that it doesn't roll away

I modified the Tikit by replacing almost every component with standard bike parts from online retailers and local bike shops. I can't do that with the Brompton, which is a pain in my butt, since I want to modify the gearing.

Both are great bikes. I've ridden the Tikit on a metric century and my girlfriend rode her Brompton. After that experience, I can tell you that I'll never ride a Tikit or a Brompton on a metric again! Out of the two, I like riding the Tikit for longer faster rides and the Brompton for shorter more casual rides.