Topolino Wheels Question
#1
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Topolino Wheels Question
We are looking into getting the Topolino Tandem wheels. Currently we are riding the Rolf Prima tandem wheels. We like the wheels and our only issue is the noise and feel of the front wheel while doing tight fast turns. Mi question is, how do the Topolino wheels behave in technical tight turns at high speed? Any info is greatly appreciated.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 72
Bikes: Serotta, Co-Motion Macchiato, Ventana El Conquistador Tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Curious to know what you are experiencing with the front wheel. My wife and I are a light team (220 lbs) and are using the Rolfs as well. In tight corners, I can hear the front rim rub (what I am presuming is the front brake pads). We don't have the pads floating millimeters away from the rims, but I am surprised we seem to be experiencing that much deflection. I have become a bit more cautious in corners now because of it.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm watching this one!
I’ll be following this thread with interest, as I’m getting ready to pull the trigger on purchasing wheels for my current Calfee build. Am I correct that Tipolino wheels are still NOT Disc brake compatible? At present time I’m leaning toward the Rolf Prima with rear disc brake. My team weight is 290 lbs, and I'm planning some good mountain cycling this summer.
#4
hors category
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,231
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
You can find additional comments on the Topolino wheels in updates #8 - #11 of our Calfee journal: https://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem_8.html
You'll also find some observations on our experience with both the '08 and an '07 set of Rolfs in updates #5 - #11, although they heavily influenced much of what was described in terms of handling issues in nearly all of the earlier updates.
#5
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
We really like our Rolfs but the attraction of lighter wheels for those climbing events and rides sounds great. We would like to use the Topolinos in those special occasions when lots of climbing is required but as we all know if you climb you most come down and wandered if the Topolinos being that light could be stiff enough laterally.
Tandem Dude wrote; “I can hear the front rim rub (what I am presuming is the front brake pads)”
We came to the conclusion that is not the brakes rubbing, we loosened the front brake on a turn, and the pads were quite separated from the rim and still made the noise and vibration. I believe it maybe just be some flex on the rim or the hub/axle.
That is some good information TandemGeek.
TandemGeek wrote; “You can find additional comments on the Topolino wheels in updates #8 - #11 of our Calfee journal: https://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem_8.html” That is some good information TandemGeek.
Tandem Dude wrote; “I can hear the front rim rub (what I am presuming is the front brake pads)”
We came to the conclusion that is not the brakes rubbing, we loosened the front brake on a turn, and the pads were quite separated from the rim and still made the noise and vibration. I believe it maybe just be some flex on the rim or the hub/axle.
That is some good information TandemGeek.
TandemGeek wrote; “You can find additional comments on the Topolino wheels in updates #8 - #11 of our Calfee journal: https://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem_8.html” That is some good information TandemGeek.
#6
Full Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Calfee and Topolino have discussed and have some ideas regarding a tandem specific disc wheel, but it is a back burner item for both, no target dates or anything specific. As a point of reference, Steve at S&S said that he and Craig had talked about aluminum couplers for 4 years before they actually went into production.
BTW was that the jet stream I saw on the Stage Coach century?
BTW was that the jet stream I saw on the Stage Coach century?
#7
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Calfee and Topolino have discussed and have some ideas regarding a tandem specific disc wheel, but it is a back burner item for both, no target dates or anything specific. As a point of reference, Steve at S&S said that he and Craig had talked about aluminum couplers for 4 years before they actually went into production.
BTW was that the jet stream I saw on the Stage Coach century?
BTW was that the jet stream I saw on the Stage Coach century?
#9
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#11
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
We had few friends helping some sag stations on the ride, so we went to check on them. We did see your tandem before the start and it. Some day well get one for us.
#12
Full Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Was recently in the LBS and saw a set of Topolinos of the new hub design come in with a cracked hub. Having cracked 3 of the old design on my single, I would not recomend these on a tandem.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
We have Rolf wheels also. If I take a peek at the wheel on a high speed decent, even while going straight, the deflection is really amazing, although not felt at the bars. It makes me wonder whats going on at the rear. These wheels are extremely durable, and very comfortable. Sonoma County roads are well known for there pot holes. Heck, the carbon steerer tube scares me more.
#14
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,273
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times
in
353 Posts
It would have to be an event with an awful lot of climbing, such as an uphill time trial to make up for the decreased aerodynamics.
Aerodynamics almost always trumps weight. And I'm willing to bet the Rolfs have substantially less drag.
If you look at what's being used in professional racing there is a big trend more aero(and there fore heavier wheels) even in races with substantial climbing. For example Tyler Hamilton won the US Pro championship in Greenville which included multiple climbs up Paris Mountain with Zipp 808's wich are about the same weight difference from say a Zipp 303 as the Rolfs are to the Topolinas.
If you go to analyticcyling.com and play with the model, assume 300 watts power, and 5% grade, reducing the drag coefficient even 2/100ths, increases speed more than decreasing weight a pound.
So even on a 5% grade, the Rolf's are likely faster, and they're certainly faster on descents, and flats.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 05-21-09 at 01:56 PM.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 144
Bikes: Steve Rex, Santana
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
FWIW I believe they are working on the King of the Mountain series
https://www.planetultra.com/KOM/index.html
and just have the Heartbreak (the easiest one) left to do. I believe only two tandems have ever finished this series before given the amount of climbing it has. (we are one - a slow one, but one just the same).
It seems they are very fast, and are apparently looking for more speed.
https://www.planetultra.com/KOM/index.html
and just have the Heartbreak (the easiest one) left to do. I believe only two tandems have ever finished this series before given the amount of climbing it has. (we are one - a slow one, but one just the same).
It seems they are very fast, and are apparently looking for more speed.
#16
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
You are correct those three events are hardcore and not just the climbs, some of the descents on Mulholland are just crazy! Great job finishing the three events
#17
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,273
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times
in
353 Posts
FWIW I believe they are working on the King of the Mountain series
https://www.planetultra.com/KOM/index.html
and just have the Heartbreak (the easiest one) left to do. I believe only two tandems have ever finished this series before given the amount of climbing it has. (we are one - a slow one, but one just the same).
It seems they are very fast, and are apparently looking for more speed.
https://www.planetultra.com/KOM/index.html
and just have the Heartbreak (the easiest one) left to do. I believe only two tandems have ever finished this series before given the amount of climbing it has. (we are one - a slow one, but one just the same).
It seems they are very fast, and are apparently looking for more speed.
I'm pretty certain on all of them, you're spending more miles descending or climbing grades of less than 5%, than you are climbing grades above 5%.
Given the above rough calculations that you're going to be better off with the aerodynamic advantage, than the weight savings for everything at or below a 5% grade, the Rolfs should be measurably faster than the Topolinos, even on those courses.
This is why we went with Rolfs for Everest Challenge.
And its also why you see deeper dish wheels being used on climbing stages of major races more and more frequently.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 144
Bikes: Steve Rex, Santana
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Obviously there's a heck of a lot of climbing in those rides. But there's also a heck of a lot of descending.
I'm pretty certain on all of them, you're spending more miles descending or climbing grades of less than 5%, than you are climbing grades above 5%.
Given the above rough calculations that you're going to be better off with the aerodynamic advantage, than the weight savings for everything at or below a 5% grade, the Rolfs should be measurably faster than the Topolinos, even on those courses.
This is why we went with Rolfs for Everest Challenge.
And its also why you see deeper dish wheels being used on climbing stages of major races more and more frequently.
I'm pretty certain on all of them, you're spending more miles descending or climbing grades of less than 5%, than you are climbing grades above 5%.
Given the above rough calculations that you're going to be better off with the aerodynamic advantage, than the weight savings for everything at or below a 5% grade, the Rolfs should be measurably faster than the Topolinos, even on those courses.
This is why we went with Rolfs for Everest Challenge.
And its also why you see deeper dish wheels being used on climbing stages of major races more and more frequently.
Normally I would say yes, but with Mulholland many of the descents are so technical that you are not going to make up any time on a descent unless you are really good at it. There is one turn on Deer Creek that has a long steep straightaway before it that makes it look like you are going to fly off the road and drop two or three thousand feet into the Pacific Ocean. (Very pretty - scared the crap out of me.) Much of the rest is very steep and very curvy. In other words, you are working the brakes so much that aerodynamics are really not an issue.
With Breathless Agony the descent is not timed. Sure you can let it rip - I think we averaged about 45 MPH for most of an hour and with more aero wheels maybe we could have gone faster, but why?
Heartbreak you probably would get some advantage with the more aero wheels.
Also, keep in mind it is not the speed advantage over X distance - it is the speed advantage over X time. Since we spend so much time going up hills we will never catch the fastest guys on the flats and descents even if we were to travel at the speed of light on them.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Wow! you are fast. For us to average 45MPH for an hour would require a grade of about -8% without thouching the brakes or coming out of the aero position, starting at 20,000' and ending at sea level. Wait, the highest paved road pass in the world is just shy of 16,000'.. we are out of luck.
#20
The Jet Stream
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Obviously there's a heck of a lot of climbing in those rides. But there's also a heck of a lot of descending.
I'm pretty certain on all of them, you're spending more miles descending or climbing grades of less than 5%, than you are climbing grades above 5%.
Given the above rough calculations that you're going to be better off with the aerodynamic advantage, than the weight savings for everything at or below a 5% grade, the Rolfs should be measurably faster than the Topolinos, even on those courses.
This is why we went with Rolfs for Everest Challenge.
And its also why you see deeper dish wheels being used on climbing stages of major races more and more frequently.
I'm pretty certain on all of them, you're spending more miles descending or climbing grades of less than 5%, than you are climbing grades above 5%.
Given the above rough calculations that you're going to be better off with the aerodynamic advantage, than the weight savings for everything at or below a 5% grade, the Rolfs should be measurably faster than the Topolinos, even on those courses.
This is why we went with Rolfs for Everest Challenge.
And its also why you see deeper dish wheels being used on climbing stages of major races more and more frequently.
#21
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,273
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times
in
353 Posts
^ There is a reason you don't see Topolino wheels in the Giro or the TDF. They have to be terrible aerodynamically.
Conversely you do see deep dish, low spoke count wheels being used in alpine stages of professional races, precisely because the aerodynamic adavantages still trump the weight penalty even in moutainous terrain.
Another example would be Team High Road using Zipp 404's for the most mountainous stage of the TOur of Califiornia, when they could have gone to Zipp 202's
Another way to think abou this is 1lb off the weight of a tandem is going to be something like .25% to .3% of the total bike/team weight. When you run the numbers through a model that takes into account weight, and aerodynamics that little weight change hardly results in a measurable change in speed.
However, changes in aerodynamic drag do result in measurable changes even at relatively slow climbing speeds.
Conversely you do see deep dish, low spoke count wheels being used in alpine stages of professional races, precisely because the aerodynamic adavantages still trump the weight penalty even in moutainous terrain.
Another example would be Team High Road using Zipp 404's for the most mountainous stage of the TOur of Califiornia, when they could have gone to Zipp 202's
Another way to think abou this is 1lb off the weight of a tandem is going to be something like .25% to .3% of the total bike/team weight. When you run the numbers through a model that takes into account weight, and aerodynamics that little weight change hardly results in a measurable change in speed.
However, changes in aerodynamic drag do result in measurable changes even at relatively slow climbing speeds.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 05-26-09 at 01:10 PM.
#22
hors category
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,231
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
For years we've ridden together -- they on their Co-Motion and we on our Ericksons with conventional wheels -- and we've always been able to pull them in our draft such that they never had to brake when tucked in and coasting down the bigger hills.
At GTR we had our Calfee fitted with the Topolino wheels and that was definitely not the case. Not only were they having to feather their brakes, several other friends were also carrying more speed on tuck and coast descents. For Tennessee we'll leave the Topolino wheels at home and use our Rolfs in an effort to confirm if it is, in fact, the wheels that are the source of the added aero drag OR (heaven forbid) if the very unaerodynamic Calfee frame design, i.e., the oversized, handwrapped headtube and 2" downtube also is a contributor.
However, aero aside and having just gotten back on the Rolfs for a short ride yesterday after about 200 miles on the Topolino wheels I will say that even on the Calfee the Topolino wheels are noticably more comfortable on rugged road. Of course, conventional wheels are also more forgiving of rough pavement than the Rolfs as well.
More to follow...
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 144
Bikes: Steve Rex, Santana
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Wow! you are fast. For us to average 45MPH for an hour would require a grade of about -8% without thouching the brakes or coming out of the aero position, starting at 20,000' and ending at sea level. Wait, the highest paved road pass in the world is just shy of 16,000'.. we are out of luck.
https://www.cyclingpros.com/onyxprofile.htm
You should ride Breathless. I am sure you could do it, and finish well - very likely faster than us.
#24
It Takes Two
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 147
Bikes: 1973 Chiappini w/ Campy New Record, 2004 Kestrel Talon w/ Campy Chorus, 2006 Santana Team Niobium
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Bloomington, IN
#25
hors category
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,231
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
Looking forward to seeing y'all at TTR; however, don't think we'll see anyone until Friday and even then Metcalf Bottoms climbs are definitely not doable for us at present. Therefore, we'll likely head into the park when the larger groups turns left towards the foothills and ride up the river to the small rest area where the Metcalf Bottoms loop crosses the river. We'll either wait there or intercept the larger group so we can enjoy the spirited ride back down the river to the 'Y'.