Spoke length weirdness
08-20-11, 06:54 PM
#1
incazzare.
Thread Starter
Spoke length weirdness
Hi guys,
I'm about to start my first wheelbuild. I disassembled the existing wheels and kept all the spokes in 3 labeled bundles from the front wheel, rear drive side, and rear non-drive side.
I have measured the existing spokes again and again to try to determine the size spokes I need to order, and I keep getting 308mm... on all of them. Whether they're from the front, or either rear side. This is from a wheel on an old 10 speed with a 5 speed freewheel. (27" Fiamme yellow clincher rims, large flange Campagnolo "nuovo tipo" hubs)
Shouldn't the rear wheel spokes be different on the different sides due to the dish? I'm a little confused here. Thanks for any light you can shed on this.
I'm about to start my first wheelbuild. I disassembled the existing wheels and kept all the spokes in 3 labeled bundles from the front wheel, rear drive side, and rear non-drive side.
I have measured the existing spokes again and again to try to determine the size spokes I need to order, and I keep getting 308mm... on all of them. Whether they're from the front, or either rear side. This is from a wheel on an old 10 speed with a 5 speed freewheel. (27" Fiamme yellow clincher rims, large flange Campagnolo "nuovo tipo" hubs)
Shouldn't the rear wheel spokes be different on the different sides due to the dish? I'm a little confused here. Thanks for any light you can shed on this.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
Last edited by lostarchitect; 08-20-11 at 07:30 PM.
08-20-11, 07:20 PM
#2
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wide flange Campagnolo ?? big difference between wide flange and high flange... for me wide flange are track hubs so wouldn't surprise me u got equal spokes for everything.
This is what I get using the right stuff.. if the store has 2 mms shorter it wont make that big of a difference., Enjoy. Put the numbers somewhere else tho, just to be sure.
Hub: Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 294.2
Spoke length right: 292.8
Hub: Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 294
Spoke length right: 294
This is what I get using the right stuff.. if the store has 2 mms shorter it wont make that big of a difference., Enjoy. Put the numbers somewhere else tho, just to be sure.
Hub: Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 294.2
Spoke length right: 292.8
Hub: Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 3
Spoke length left: 294
Spoke length right: 294
Last edited by ultraman6970; 08-20-11 at 07:24 PM.
08-20-11, 07:27 PM
#3
incazzare.
Thread Starter
Sorry, wrong term I guess. Velobase calls it "large flange". It's these hubs: https://www.velobase.com/velobase.com...m=110&AbsPos=1
36 hole, and 4 cross lacing.
Where did you enter those numbers?
edit: also I think the Fiamme yellow ergal rims are not the same ones I have... I think mine are the "professional" model, based on the labels shown on Velobase: https://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=107&AbsPos=5
Thanks!
36 hole, and 4 cross lacing.
Where did you enter those numbers?
edit: also I think the Fiamme yellow ergal rims are not the same ones I have... I think mine are the "professional" model, based on the labels shown on Velobase: https://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=107&AbsPos=5
Thanks!
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
Last edited by lostarchitect; 08-20-11 at 07:39 PM.
08-20-11, 07:38 PM
#4
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4x? easy... based on this i would pick everything in 305. Where I got this? secret 
Just pull spoke calculation at google, bunch of tables and stuff, since I get 305 and u 308 I would go to another site to just be sure, 3 mm is too much difference.
Hub: Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 4
Spoke length left: 305.4
Spoke length right: 304
Hub: Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 4
Spoke length left: 305.2
Spoke length right: 305.2
Just pull spoke calculation at google, bunch of tables and stuff, since I get 305 and u 308 I would go to another site to just be sure, 3 mm is too much difference.Hub: Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 4
Spoke length left: 305.4
Spoke length right: 304
Hub: Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
Rim: Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
Number of spokes: 36
Crosses: 4
Spoke length left: 305.2
Spoke length right: 305.2
08-20-11, 07:41 PM
#5
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U might need this too, just wonder if there is a difference in the ERD for that rim but pretty much all the stuff back in the day was 617 to 620
Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
ERD: 617
OSB: 0
Size: 700C
Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
Right flange ø: 67
Left flange ø: 67
Centre to right flange: 34
Centre to left flange: 34
Spoke hole ø: 2.3
Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
Right flange ø: 67
Left flange ø: 67
Centre to right flange: 21
Centre to left flange: 36
Spoke hole ø: 2.3
Fiamme Ergal (Yellow Label)
ERD: 617
OSB: 0
Size: 700C
Campagnolo all hi-flange models, front
Right flange ø: 67
Left flange ø: 67
Centre to right flange: 34
Centre to left flange: 34
Spoke hole ø: 2.3
Campagnolo all 126mm hi-flange models, rear
Right flange ø: 67
Left flange ø: 67
Centre to right flange: 21
Centre to left flange: 36
Spoke hole ø: 2.3
08-20-11, 07:51 PM
#6
incazzare.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the help, you are awesome!
The only thing that worries me, is the rim is not the yellow fiamme ergal, it's the 27" yellow fiamme professional, which I can't seem to find on any of the spoke calculators... hmmm...
https://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=107&AbsPos=5
The only thing that worries me, is the rim is not the yellow fiamme ergal, it's the 27" yellow fiamme professional, which I can't seem to find on any of the spoke calculators... hmmm...
https://www.velobase.com/ViewComponen...m=107&AbsPos=5
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
Last edited by lostarchitect; 08-20-11 at 07:57 PM.
08-20-11, 08:06 PM
#7
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The rear hub is likely a 120 or 122mm hub folks...hence using same size spokes all around is okay...
Aiming for the screwdriver flat of the nipples:
Front 4X = 305.37
Rear Left 4X = 305.26
Rear Right 4X = 304.42
My guess is the original spokes had 12mm threading instead of 10mm threading...and the nipples (10mm) allowed a good 2-3mm of poke-through through the top of the nipples.
Very common back in the 60s and 70s...
=8-)
Aiming for the screwdriver flat of the nipples:
Front 4X = 305.37
Rear Left 4X = 305.26
Rear Right 4X = 304.42
My guess is the original spokes had 12mm threading instead of 10mm threading...and the nipples (10mm) allowed a good 2-3mm of poke-through through the top of the nipples.
Very common back in the 60s and 70s...
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
08-20-11, 08:12 PM
#8
incazzare.
Thread Starter
Thanks, MrRabbit. Yes, rear hub is 120mm according to Velobase. The length of the threaded area on the spokes varies a little but seems to be about 10mm typically, sometimes 9mm. The nipples are about 11mm long, but they have a raised head--a dome of about 1mm. These made noticeable bumps under the rim tape.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
08-20-11, 08:29 PM
#9
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Are these single wall rims taking tires and tubes?
=8-)
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
08-20-11, 08:40 PM
#10
incazzare.
Thread Starter
08-20-11, 08:59 PM
#11
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U can measure the ERD and the hub distances with a caliper and stick that into any spoke calculator man... Sadly I have no idea whats the ERD for that rim and is not listed in any of the spreadsheets i have. sorry.
08-20-11, 09:05 PM
#12
incazzare.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all your help, I will try the manual measurement.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
08-20-11, 09:09 PM
#13
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If they are single wall rims - in 27" - the ERD is 620mm to as much as 622mm. That would allow spoke lengths of 307.00mm and 308.00mm using 4 cross lacing.
=8-)
https://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php
Grab the spreadsheet...the hubs are in the bottom third under pre-1994 hubs.
=8-)
=8-)
https://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php
Grab the spreadsheet...the hubs are in the bottom third under pre-1994 hubs.
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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