VertigoFlyer

Hey folks,

We finally broke down and got a professional bike fit today. Oh what a difference it has made! Here is a list of what got changed as best I recall:

• Seat post raised 2 cm. I think the seat post clamp wasn't tight enough and it slipped all the way down to the bottom. And um, I didn't notice....ugh
  
• Seat moved forward a bit. I don't recall how much it got moved...
  
• Stem swapped out from a 80 cm to a 110 cm carbon. Last year I broke my right arm in 4 places and needed to shorten the reach while my arm/shoulder healed. Yes that crash hurt like hell!! The good news is my mtn bike survived with barely a scratch!
  
• New handlebars are on order. The stock Bontrager handlebars are compacts and always felt very cramped in the drops. We ordered a 44 cm wide Ritchey Comp Streem that is much more open in the drops.
  
• Cleats were moved forward several millimeters and twisted counter clockwise a few degrees.

The above took about an hour and a half to get dialed in. I took the bike out for a 15 mile ride over varied terrain and LOVED the changes!! It's all very subtle but wow am I pleased with the investment at $150.00 each.

My wife says she's very happy too! So life is good at Ramblin Lamb!!

We had the fittings done at Veloce Velo on Mercer Island WA. Ryan from BikePT did the fitting. I highly recommend the experience!!

volosong

Did you order the bars through Veloce Velo? If so, I hope they give you a "re-fit" or "mini-fit" after you/they install the new bars. A lot can change when you swap bars. They all differ so much in shape, drop, and reach. How about the position of the shifters? If they are "toed in", "toed out", or straight? How far up or down the rotation of the bars are? You might even have to go with a different length stem. If any of these are "messed up", it will negate the investment you made in your fit.

Nice report. Pro fits are so important to obtain optimal efficiency and mitigate pain.

---

On the rotation of the cleats. Do your cleats float, or are they fixed?

VertigoFlyer

Thanks for the feedback Volosong I appreciate it!!

I expect there will be some fine tuning after the new handlebars. The shifters were toed in during the fit and currently feel great! I can tweak them a bit once the handlebars arrive and before I commit the handlebar tape.

My pedals are Shimano Ultegra 6700's so yes there is some 5 degrees of float. The changes to the cleats were quite subtle. I went through HELL last year working on getting my feet happy. The Ultegra pedals and Sidi shoes made all the difference in the world. Add into that not over tightening the two lower straps and my feet are WAY HAPPY. The subtle adjustments today just made a good thing even better.

volosong

Hmmm. That's interesting. I'm running 6700/7900 pedals too, (different bikes). By default, they come with the yellow floating cleats. I would think that with the float, you could twist your foot at will. Guess not. Me? I can't ride with float, so I never even installed the yellow floating cleats and purchased the red no-float cleats. I'm too used to the old "rat trap" system that didn't allow your foot to move about on the pedal. I tired float cleats when I first got clipless pedals, (Keo). Didn't even get a block away from the shop when I want straight back and told them to give me no-float cleats.

Did get one fit once, and it was "okay". It was a new bike, so I really didn't have anything to compare as to before-and-after differences. Only thing is that they sold me a different stem than I wanted. I wanted a RItchey WCS 4-axis and they gave me an Easton EA90. I've since stripped that bike and moved the components to a newer frame. I'm somewhat comfortable on that bike, making little tweaks here and there as the months go by. I really should get a pro fit on that bike because it will probably be my main bike from here on out. I'm just trying different seats. Right now I have a SMP LIte 209 and this weekend if I have time, I'm going to put on a Cobb Max V-flow. Tried the Cobb on my climbing bike today, (thought my ride today would take in some hills). It wasn't adjusted right, but I could tell that it is going to be very, very comfortable. Much more so than the SMP. Once I decide on the seat, I'll probably invest in a fit.

Philipaparker

I am a big fan of getting professionally bike fit. Makes riding much more enjoyable.

bruce19

I've always wondered about the professional fitting option. I wonder what you get out of it that you couldn't do yourself. Aren't we talking about LBS people who have been taught to use a Fit Kit or some such but have never been coaches and don't know your riding style at all? I am not opposed to suggestions but I'm wondering if anything they do is worth $150.

John_V 

^^ This, plus it just makes sense to me not to have to ride for months one end while you keep trying to tweak your fit and keep getting it wrong. When I got my first road bike, I had a Retul fitting done before I started riding it. Since every setting and measurement was in the computer, it was a piece of cake setting up my new bike to match the old measurements. Only took 20 minutes on the machine to make sure they got everything right. They did! Bike is perfect.

Six jours

IMO "pro" fits are fine for people who don't know anything about fitting and don't want to learn. If your position is wrong by centimeters, and you don't know it, then yes, you'll benefit from a pro fitting.

But a cyclist can learn what he needs to know from easily available books or websites, and by applying that knowledge, will certainly not be riding around with his seat an inch too low. If that cyclist then goes to a "professional" fitter, he will discover that any suggested changes will be in the neighborhood of a few millimeters.

Of course, there are many cyclists who have convinced themselves that the guy at the LBS is a "guru" because he charges lots of money for his services. And just like spending a lot of money for a bike convinces them that the bike is way better than anything else they've ever ridden, spending a lot of money for a fitting convinces them that they're now much more comfortable and much faster - even though the effect of changing something a few millimeters is similar to the effect of swinging a dead chicken around while mumbling incantations. The deep dark truth is that the "pro" fitter at the LBS is usually some guy who's been involved in the sport for a few years and learned what he knows about fitting from A) the same sources available to all of us, B) the instructions that came with the fitting tool/s, and C) the boss, who wants him to fit customers to whatever sizes are available on the sales floor at the moment.

Short version: pro fittings are worth $150 if you've got plenty of money, don't know anything at all about fit, don't want to learn anything about fit, currently have a really bad fit, and have a fitting guru who isn't a 17 year old new hire who just got promoted from gofer duties.

HTH!

John_V 

Bruce,

It really depends on the type of fitting that you get. I got a Retul fitting when I got my first road bike. Unlike some of the other fitting systems that I have seen that use measuring tools to do the fit, Retul is a laser/LED computer fitting that works in real-time while you are riding the bike on a trainer. It uses electrodes placed on your foot, knee, hip, shoulder,elbow, wrist and hand to produce a three dimensional view of how you are riding. This is done on both sides of body and measures all the different angles that your body is in when you are riding. With this data, they can make all the adjustments and tweaks and then let you go some more to see if the adjustments are correct. The fit is done at various resistance levels to show how your body changes between the different settings. After the initial fitting, you take the bike and ride it for a few weeks and bring it back for some final tweaking (part of the cost of the fitting). On my Defy, it took three visits and several minor changes before it was dead on perfect.

The fitters are trained by Retul and are certified by them before they can use the equipment. My fitter told me it was a four day course at the Retul facility. Retul is the same system that Carmichael Training uses as well as most of the major team trainers. If there is a local shop that offers it, I would definitely recommend it to anyone who is looking for a professional fit. I don't work for Retul or any bike shop that offers their service, but having had one done, I think it is the best system out there, even at $250.00.

Bob Ross

You guys don't wanna know what I paid for a professional fitting





...but it was worth every penny. I'd go back in a heartbeat. Real pros not only know a whole lot more about biomechanics than any cycling enthusiast can hope to learn as an autodidact, they also have the benefit of seeing hundreds of clients and learning from that vast experience. Yeah, the teen at yer LBS might charge money for his "fitting" service, but that doesn't make him a "pro".

John_V 

I would tend to disagree with your statement. If what you say were true, why do the major trainers use computerized fitting systems before each major race to make sure their rider's fit are right on target? Even though you may know something about fit, after spending time reading all those books, internet articles and forum posts, how long do you keep making these estimate adjustments while riding in discomfort and/or pain before you get it right, even if it is a millimeter here or a millimeter there? It just makes sense to have one done when you get a new bike and not have to play around with an adjustment here and an adjustment there until you think you got it right, only to find out after a long ride that you have to tweak it some more.

That being said, I do agree that not all so called "professional fittings" are worth the money nor are many of them really professional fittings. I would be very cautious if I were being fitted by someone with a tape measure and a plumb-bob and they are charging me a lot of money for a so-called professional fit. There are several fitting systems out there that are well worth the money and make riding more enjoyable from the get go rather than screwing around with adjustments for weeks to months trying to dial in something that you could have had done in an hour or so.

Six jours

I actually was a professional cyclist, and learned from some extremely knowledgeable folks. Later, I became a professional coach, who even had the good fortune to coach a Master's world champion. And for a time I even convinced myself that I was a guru.

But with time came a small measure of wisdom, and I realized that if I boiled down all my accumulated knowledge about fitting, any reasonably intelligent cyclist could figure out pretty much the same stuff from a half hour of careful reading on the internet.

I firmly believe that cyclists delude themselves into thinking that if they just pay enough money to the right guy, they'll be privy to all the ancient secrets. And again, the power of the mind is enough to make a cyclist believe that that's what he really got. So if you're suggestible enough, maybe it really is worth the money.

Six jours

News to me. I'd need to know where you heard that before commenting.

That's kind of circular, as my argument is that "a millimeter here or a millimeter there" don't have any real effect, and unless your position is really bad, the fitter isn't going to be doing anything especially meaningful - you end up paying for chicken swinging and mumbled incantations, and success depends upon how suggestible you are.

Let's put it this way: look around the site for awhile, paying attention to the "fit" threads. One of the first thing you'll notice is many people have had multiple fittings...

John_V 

There was an article in one of last years Bicycling Magazine issues about computerized fittings and the trainers that used them. It emphasized several training systems and also Carmichael Training where he stated that they put all their riders through a fitting to make sure all the bikes they are riding are dialed in properly. The article came out after I had my fitting and did not influence me in any way.

I had two bikes before buying my first road bike. I read several articles on bike fit and did the fitting myself on both bikes. I never could get the first bike dialed in correctly and made changes constantly. The second bike wasn't as bad, but it still took me a while before I got it to where I thought it should be. After six months, I ended up dropping the stem and had to start the adjustments again. When I got my first road bike, I decided I wasn't going to keep tinkering with adjustments on a bike that came off the rack. I had a Retul fitting done and it was pretty much on target after just one hour. The initial settings made at the shop I got the bike from were way off. I had done a 100K charity ride not too long after the fitting and never had a problem with discomfort of any type. I did go back and have an adjustment to the handlebar as I was having some issues with hand positioning while riding the hoods. I rode the Defy for over 3,100 miles with no further adjustments or discomfort of any type. I just purchased a new road bike last month and had the settings from my old bike transferred to the new one. The miles you see below are mostly on the new bike. I have yet to adjust anything on the bike since I picked it up. Was the cost of the original fitting worth it to me, you bet it was. As for people having to get multiple fittings, maybe they just didn't get the right one to start with.

bruce19

That all sounds very intriguing. If I had $250 to spend I might do it just to see how it differs from what I've done on my own. I love stuff like this.

bruce19

That's sort of what I've come to. That and the trial and error of actually riding.

NOS88

I think your advice assumes that all people have the same level of body awareness, ability to make corrections based on feedback their body may provide, and/or the ability to transfer concepts in written or spoken form into an actual real application of the concepts. My experience has been that there are those folks who lack some or even all of these. To suggest that a reasonably intelligent person can figure it out for themselves is based on a presupposition of what constitutes intelligence. Perhaps one of the major differences between professional athletes and many non-professional enthusiasts is the pro’s high ability to tune into his or her body and its response to small change. While accepting some of your analysis, I would expand who a fitting might benefit.

John_V 

Not to put you in this category, but reading all these threads on BF about fit, I often wonder why so many people want to spend all this time and the trial and error to avoid spending the money on a true professional fit, but have no problems spending over $300.00 for a team kit so that they "look good" or "look professional" when they ride their $3k plus bikes. I will have to agree with NOSS88 on what he posted. Not only is it widely assumed that everybody has the ability to do their own fitting adjustments, but it's also assumed that all cyclists want to do it themselves.

If the cost of my bike is in the $400-500 dollar range, a $250.00 fit does seem kind of overkill. However, I don't see it unreasonable to spend the $250.00 if you are paying more than $2K on a bike. As I said before, on the road bike, I just didn't want to bother with trail and error when I had a 100K ride coming up and an MS 150 after that. I think this topic of pro fit vs do-it-yourself fit is right there with the topic of aluminum vs carbon fiber bikes and it can drag on for pages; ending up trying to beat a dead horse to death.

Bob Ross

So in other words, you hadn't really accumulated all that much knowledge about fitting, eh?

jackb

I'm always wary of the so-called "professinals" when it comes to things one can figure for oneself. When my son was about four we paid for a ski lesson on the bunny slope. After the lesson I asked the "professional" instructor when I could take my son out on some green(easy) slopes. He said two or three more lessons. So i took my son directly out on some easy slopes and he did well. so I took him to a few blue slopes that same afternoon and he did equally well. Naturally, he is an expert skier now. I paid for the lesson so that my wife and I could get the morning off to ski by ourselves, otherwise I could have saved what really was a babysitting fee. At most of the bike shops I've been to, the staff was primarily made up of teenagers and twenty somethings working for near if not actualy minimum wage with no education beyond high school. I wonder where they got their "professional" training. But, if one likes what these kinds of pros do and say, no harm done. I remember an experiment I once did many years cncering skis. I went into the local store and asked about a particular pair of skis I had my eye on. I received the sales pitch which included that this particular pair of skis was for advanced skiers. I went a week or two later and spoke to another ski expert who told mea that this same pair of skis were biginning to intermediate. I had already examined the skis myself and knew very well what they were best suited for. I find that there are lots of "professionals" who really are full of crap.This does not mean that they are all like that. I know some ski and bike people who really do know something. It pays to know something yourself so you can weed out the bull****ers. But if you don't mind paying and find what you pay for useful, there you go.

Six jours

Actually, no, I didn't, because it really isn't that complicated. The "gurus" have a financial incentive to make it seem like there's a lot to it - I'm sure all those computerized lasers cost a bundle - but once you get past the mumbo-jumbo you see it's really pretty basic.

One of the things that bugs me about the modern version of the sport is that it no longer seems to attract the type of fellow who prefers to kill his own snakes. Now it appears that the "average" cyclist believes he's not really capable of figuring anything out for himself and needs to pay "experts" to tell him what to do. C'est la vie...

Six jours

Well, I tend to assume that other folks are at least as smart as me, and that if I could figure something out (especially something as simple as bike fit) everyone else could too.

If there's a true secret to fit, FWIW, it's that fit is 95% about the rider, and 5% about the bike. I have often used the example of the pro from the "old days" back before every professional had his own personal spare bike on the team car. A few decades ago, only the stars got that treatment. If a lower level pro needed a spare bike during a race, he'd get a generic one of approximately the right size, and at most could hope that the team mechanic would be able to adjust his saddle height on the fly. The key is that when you looked at the rider on his borrowed bike, you'd usually be hard-pressed to tell that his position might be off by several centimeters, because he knew how to sit on the bike, rather than expecting the bike to force him into the "right" position.

So if there's any deep dark knowledge to be won on the topic, it has to do with learning how to sit on your bike, rather than paying some guru to swing his chicken.

And then, just to throw a wrench into the whole works, there's this guy:



Just an absolutely awful position on the bike, but the best bicycle racer in the world for nearly a decade running. Hmm...

NOS88

I understand your point. However, after teaching martial arts for over three decades, I've revised some of my thinking about intelligence. I've trained some very smart and successful people who had almost no ability to learn the martial arts. Some just seemed to have no awareness of their own bodies. Even with mirrors, video tapes, and physically positioning them, move by move, they could not learn. I've come to believe that the ability to be aware of one's body and then adjust one's use of his or her body in a purposeful way is a form of intelligence not possessed by everyone. So, I expect there is a range of body intelligence which could make it very difficult for some people to figure out correct positions for cycling on their own.

John_V 

Again, there is an assumption that all cyclist have this inherit ability to do so right off the bat or can do so by reading Peter White's article on the internet. From experience, I would totally disagree with that. Years ago, when I was still working as a Paramedic, the county hired this person who could almost quote any passage from any of the medical books we used for our level of care. After this person completed her probationary period, she was quickly placed in the training department even though policy stated that you must have a minimum of five years street experience before going into the training department. Those that never worked with her made formal complaints because it was a promotion making more money than they were making. Those of us that worked with her were glad to get her off the streets. With all the medical knowledge this person had, she put on a bandage on properly or use the equipment on the truck because her brain and her hands never made a connection. As a software developer, I have seen examples of this run ramped with people having degrees and certifications that have problems applying what they know to how to get it done.

I really don't see your point in comparing yesterday with today. In the "old days" we had televisions that were the size of small refrigerators with a 7-10 inch, black and white screen. At that time, anyone that had one probably couldn't imagine what else technology could do to improve on this modern marvel. Today, we can watch television and movies on our cell phones. Does that mean that what we have today isn't as good as the old 7" black and white TV? Today will be the "old days" of tomorrow and the technology we have today will be tomorrow's memories. Technology and the research behind it changes every day and in every aspect of our life, including cycling. While you may be able to tweak your fit on your own and become more comfortable on the bike after several weeks or months of doing so, but you most likely would not be getting the full performance potential that can be achieved by something like a Retul fitting. I would suggest that you do a bit more research on it, take an actual look at how it's done and then see if you still think you can achieve the same results by reading Peter White's web page.

John_V 

Although I agree with some of your statements (having been there and done that), I am only stating that you can't group all fittings into one generic box and say that none are worth anything and that, as Six jorus states, you are paying someone to "swing the chicken" for something that can accomplished on your own by reading an internet article. At the shop I purchased my first road bike from, their idea of a fitting was adjusting the saddle height. I didn't pay for that because it came with the purchase of the bike. After riding it around the block a few times I knew that there was more to be done before I was going to ride this bike on a 100K ride a month away. I didn't want to do that ride and not be tuned in to my bike so I looked into several fitting services offered by some of the local shops. I will admit, I wouldn't pay $100.00 for someone to drop a plumb-bob from my knee, measure my leg with a tape measure and the bend of my knee with a protractor and then tell me that they just did a "Professional Fit."

A lot of shops had all sorts of contraptions and tools to measure this and that but the problem is that you are sitting still on the bike and the measurements are not true measurements, as they will change when you start pedaling. You can't measure ankle and leg deflection that occurs while pedaling if you're sitting still. After two weeks of doing some research, it came down to three systems that were used by pro team training camps. Two of these services were not offered in my area. The Retul service was. I went with it and would do it again any day of the week. A true professional fit does more than make you more comfortable on the bike; it optimizes the performance you get from it.

You're right - "It pays to know something yourself so you can weed out the bull****ers."