Cousin Jack

This is my very first post on this forum, so....please be kind! It happens that I ended up with this bicycle, see, a "Windsor Tourist," https://www.windsorbicycles.com/tourist2.html, a machine I bought for a European tour last summer that didn't materialize (we did go, but rented a motorcycle in Balzano, Italy for the Dolomites!), and I'm wondering -- how close is this Windsor Tourist to a real Randonneuring bike? Will it do, do you think? For I have this impossible idea: I once had a UCFS licence, did many centuries, and once did the Seattle to Portland in one day, but that all happened back in 1970-1987! I'm seventy years old, see, and while people whom I trust tell me I'm still pretty fit, I'd like to be a "Randonnee." I still ride a lot, climb, ski, and hike, and I'm a Alpine Ski Patroller at Snoqualmie Pass, putting in 20-30 shifts a season. My doctor thinks I'm in optimal condition. And I'm wondering if I could still train myself up, for a 1000 if not a 1200. I've ordered the book "Distance Cycling," by Hughes and Kehlenbach, but it hasn't arrived yet. Other than my ski patrol shifts, I'm fully retired, and have plenty of time to train. Sometimes we get little snow here, and I could ride realistically for 6-7 hours a day. So.... please give me your considered opinion:

1.) Is the bike suitable? What mods would you suggest?
2.) Is this a pipe dream for a geezer like me? Are other seventy-year-olds out there randonneuring? Do you have any training advice for me?

Any suggestions on equipment or training would be very much appreciated.......

unterhausen

that bike will work. You should start thinking about lights.

Riding long distances really is riding short distances over and over. I usually think about the next 5 miles or so. Don't train too many long days, it just doesn't help all that much. I think your main goal should be to be able to ride 20 miles in good form, then 30 miles, and continue to build. My magic number is 60 miles, once I can ride that without feeling the effects I can go any distance. But mostly do shorter rides, no more than 30 miles or so.

There are plenty of 70 y.o. randonneurs. I saw a batch of people that had to be over 70 riding PBP. I think a lot of them suffered because of a lack of core strength. It becomes harder to build muscle as we age, so hopefully you didn't lose too much.

Cousin Jack

Thanks, Unterhausen, very encouraging, both on the bike and the age issue. My wife and I do ride about 20 miles several times a week, and I think my core strength is pretty fair.... been carrying a lot of packs, and skiing helps there, too, I think. I'll lengthen the training rides just a bit, lift some weights, and shop for some lights. Also found the Seattle Randonneur site; they seem to have an organized ride or a "populaire" at least once a month -- think I'll load up and travel across the mountains to see what I can learn. Thanks again....

unterhausen

it seems that the older riders on PBP and other 1200k rides have more problems with Shermer's neck. As you ride longer distances, strengthening your neck muscles is a good idea. But that's getting ahead of the game.

Bacciagalupe

I'd recommend:

1) Gradually increase your mileage, don't overdo it.
2) Get a professional bike fit. You need to avoid repetitive injuries and knee problems at all costs, especially since if you see any doc and say "my knee hurts," they'll probably push you to get knee replacement surgery.
3) Read Gretchen Reynolds' The First 20 Minutes.

Cousin Jack

Looks like I found the best place to come for answers! There's a certified bike fitter in our little town, Recycle Bike Shop ($150 ....ouch!..... I'll ask for it as a Christmas present!); I just put The First 20 Minutes on my Kindle; googled Shermer's Neck...worrisome.... any suggestions on neck exercises? And again, thanks, gentlemen

skiffrun

Some comments dealing with Shermer's Neck and neck-pain-in-general, from a very seasoned randonneur, who happens to be pretty well known in the US, and overseas, too:
https://ncrandonneur.blogspot.com/201...hand-pain.html

================================================================

Regarding the John Hughes book: I am admittedly a "nobody", but it is my opinion that the Hughes stuff always seems to be designed to convince the reader just how hard it is to do a century or longer rides -- combined with convincing you to get a coach (pay $$$), as after all, it is hard to do centuries and the rando SR rides, or so the book will keep reminding you.

Also, that book is written for young and nearly national class FAST riders. The verbiage in that book will claim otherwise, but look at it closely. It is still my opinion that my then 62-63 year-old friend spent most of 2011 and much of 2012 being tired-all-the-time because there was not adequate rest / recovery time for an older person built into the suggested training regimines (sp?).

=================================================================

The Raleigh RBA turns 70 this coming March. He is still going strong. His biggest problems usually stem from residuals of a terrible car-bike crash 10 years ago. He did have to manage-the-heat the last two summers.

The now 85+/- year-old, now retired High Point RBA did a RAAM four-man team ride, all were 70 or over at the time; he did a lot of other endurance rides (including about a dozen Assaults on Mt. Mitchell). And, he didn't start doing long-endurance riding until he was 59 -- his joke at last year's NC Year-End rando party was: "there is still time for all you youngsters."

20_700c

IMHO the Windsor Tourist is is a fine bike for randonneuring. Some might argue it's heavier than necessary and it's certainly not built up with uber-lightweight, stratospheric quality-spec equipment - but none of that is anything that is truly rhetorically valuable. It's a well-built bike - at least mine has been. I've probably got 4k miles on it and never doubted its "ability to finish" any ride. Others have gone cross-country on one without problems.

The only mods that I'd consider "out of the box" might be putting a mountain biking triple on the front - depends on your local terrain, the condition of your knees and any non-local terrain you intend to ride in the foreseeable future.

As far as "training to do randonneuring" goes, it kinda depends on your goals, but basically, I think "just ride" is the best advice. "Listen to your body" is the second best advice I've been given. Learn what a "recovery ride" pace is - use it. Recovery is as important for long distance riding as interval rides are.

Vary the rides in terms of terrain, riding/weather conditions, toss in a few short-distance "intervals" periodically just to vary things a bit, and learn about what clothing to wear when. I know of a few locals who don't ride farther than 40 milers as training for their brevets. If speed/finishing fast is your goal, up the number and intensity of the intervals. If finishing is the goal, then endurance is what I'd concentrate on.

The one thing that is relatively simple to do if you're planning oriented is to do a quick Net search for century-ride training programs and follow one of those ---- they vary in length from 8 weeks to 20 weeks. From that point on, you'll have a good idea how to proceed to brevet-length rides.

Edited to add: Find a decent handlebar bag and/or a lightweight rear rack and bag for tools, food and other gear you might carry. Some like the handlebar bag for its easy access while riding. OThers prefer the rear rack bag for its capacity.

Rowan

The UMCA website is a mine of information for all things long-distance cycling:

www.ultracycling.com

The Windsor sounds as though it is similar to such bikes as the Fuji Touring and Trek 520. I have done just about all my randonneuring on the Fuji Touring. It's not a lightweight bike, but it was reliable. The comment about replacing the crankset with an MTB triple is sound, particularly if you are riding with the SIRs.

The thing about randonneuring is that the original philosophy behind it was "fast touring". It's one that I have held on to, because it means I don't have to be ultra fast, or even fast, to be a winner in this type of personal challenge -- all I have to do is finish within the designated time limit.

Good fit is vital. A good saddle is, too. In Seattle, you will need to look at what works in rain, from layering to outer shells. Your background in skiing might be useful, but the physical output in cycling means you will sweat more, and that takes on other considerations such as pitzips on jackets and riding in cold, windy weather.

Riding and experimenting on shorter distances will give you an idea of what will work and won't for you. That covers things such as eating and drinking so you don't bonk and can remain emotionally on top of things right throughout each event. In fact, working on refuelling and rehydration is something that you may need to concentrate on, even with your short training rides, so you get into good habits. You also will find out if you can tolerate solid foods, or need liquid foods, or a combination of both to do what you need.

The populaires are a good starting point to see where you are now, and how much work you may or may not need to do to graduate up to the official randonneuring distances of 200, 300 and so on.

I would suggest, however, that your current 20-mile rides will need to start extending further and further as the weeks go by. I am assuming this riding season will draw to close fairly soon, and that with your winter activities, you will have good residual fitness to start a ramped-up program in spring. You may need to consider getting in your first century fairly early in the season, along with the populaires, and then seeing how things go from there.

Finally, ride your own ride. There is a strong temptation to set out on a ride and stay with the fast boys. But this can have dramatic negative consequences later on. You will likely find on the populaires that you will find people of your own speed to ride with, but don't be stressed if you don't.

Irrespective, maintain a pace that you feel comfortable with and that will get you to the finish in time. If you take the full amount of time to finish... consider that you have got your full money's worth out of the entry fee!!

Oh, and welcome to the world of randonneuring.

Carbonfiberboy 

Join RUSA and SIR. See the SIR website:
https://www.seattlerandonneur.org/

Besides populaires, the SIR winter training series (WTS) should start the first week in January, offering a free ride from 50-80 miles every weekend. The WTS rides are usually quite hilly, so work some on increasing your sustainable power. The WTS will prepare you just fine for the first 200k, which prepares you for the 300k, etc.

Concentrate on figuring out your clothing. The SIR ACP brevet series takes place during the rainy season. The WTS will expose you to these horrors. The other big thing to work on is eating during the ride. It's also good to figure out what you need to have with you, and what you don't need is equally important.

The bike is the least important thing. It just has to fit you very well, be reliable, and go where you point it.

My only caution is that older LD riders are susceptible to developing A-fib, so don't just go for it all the time, which seems to bring that on.

Oh - all those training books are written for children, even the "over 50" ones. You won't be able to do anything like what they say. Do your one long ride per week and otherwise work on quality training and recovery.

Cousin Jack

Again, wow.... what a source of information and good advice..... I've already learned:

-- cheaper but well-fitted is better than expensive and ill-fitted..
-- (from The First 20 Minutes)... harder, but less, is better than easy, and more...
-- age is a limiting but not necessarily a forbidding factor... as long as one doesn't lie to oneself....
-- acquiring skills, systematic preparation, and my innate treachery just might see me through....
-- I should consider re-fitting to a MTB chain set (from my current 30-42-52), but I'm not exactly sure why....generally lower range?
-- because of the dreaded Pacific Northwest weather, clothing is a major issue (but I've learned a lot about that as a ski patroller)..
-- since so little training literature is written by geezers, take the whole body of it with a grain of salt, and listen to thine own body and self...
-- exotic Randonneurers are just 115 miles away, and available for advice and training...

Also, I've read on someone's blog (can't find it now) that the Windsor Tourist is, indeed, a Fugi frame; whatever "Windsor" is simply buys up excess Fugi frames and fits them up..... corporate magic! I only paid $599 from BikeDirect delivered... it'll do....

Finally, thanks so much for all.... on it, now......

Oh, one other thing...prostate issues, for us geezers (most of you don't know what I'm talking about, but you will in about twenty years!)... I found when returning to cycling that I could no longer tolerate a normal saddle. On my pic of the Cheapie Randonnee below, you see my solution so far....a noseless "moonsaddle," which has been okay for up to 35 miles, but further than that.... who knows? Does anyone know what blue hairs like me with swollen prostates do to handle it? (Also notice on the pic my new light! Got a front one, too, but haven't decided where to put it yet....)

10 Wheels

My friend Roy, rode 750 miles for his 75th Birthday. He now has 60,000 + miles on his WT.

Just change the 30T Chain Ring to a 24T and ride.

Cousin Jack

Holey Moley! Double Holey Moley! Good on that fellow! Double good on that fellow! That's how I wanna be! 24 T coming up! Would he share his training regimen, do you think?

10 Wheels

Training = Ride Much

Summer of 2009 NY to LA 4200 miles in 57 days when he was 73 y/o.

Cousin Jack

I have a new hero...... I, too, will go out and ride much..... Thanks Ten Wheels, for posting up your incredible friend....

Carbonfiberboy 

I have an older rando buddy who also cannot tolerate a normal saddle. He's been riding a noseless one for at least 15 years, including on PBP and other 1200k randonnees. His opinion is that folks who put down these types of saddles haven't ridden them. That said, there is variation in the butt/noseless-saddle fit and interface, just like with any saddle. It took him a while to settle on a saddle that was perfect for him. If you PM me, I might be able to put you in touch with him. I'm 67, still riding a normal saddle, though it has to be just so.

You don't say which cassette you're running. I have 3 bikes I've ridden LD on. My fav is a carbon 9-speed with 52-42-30 in front and 12-27 in back. 5 years ago, that was a 12-25. Another bike is a 10-speed with 52-39-26 in front and 11-25 in back. Also a 9-speed tandem with 52-39-26 in front and 12-34 in back. I'm not a particularly strong rider. You'll find a 24-42 shift to be a PITA, and I think you're much too strong to run an MTB crankset. You'll find it important to stay with a group and a relatively normal road triple is what everyone else will be running. Compacts are also a disadvantage, as their shifting is different than a triple's. The 42 ring in front is a good thing, so I'd recommend staying with your current crankset and rings and trying a 12-32 in back, then seeing what cogs you're using.

10 Wheels

I ride with a 52-42-24 crank set. No problem shifting. You don't use the 24T that much.

Roy rides with a 11-34 cassette.

A better crank range might be a 50-39-24.
It is some what a personal choice related to your hills and core strength.

lhbernhardt

When I first started racing, back around 1971 with the Berkeley Wheelmen, the oldest guy in the club was "Foxy Grandpa" Ed Delano. I don't know how old he was at the time, but he was ancient, had to be older than 70! And he was racing even then. When asked what kinds of races he liked, his answer was, "the longer they are, the better I like 'em!"

I think this typifies what happens as we get older. We don't get faster, but we can go longer. So as long as you take it a step at a time, and let your body adapt comfortably to the demands placed on it, I think you'll be fine. Listen to your body, but challenge it, so it can tell you things.

I would agree that the bike is just not that important. I rode Paris-Brest-Paris n a fixed-gear bike, along with a bunch of other people. Sophie Matter did the same ride on a heavy commuter bike with a basket carrying flowers. So anything lighter, with gears, is just fine for any distance as long as it's reliable. And here's where I might disagree with some of the above posts. If it's a Windsor built in Mexico, I'd use it for training, but I wouldn't necessarily trust it on long rides. Mexican workmanship tends to be somewhat questionable. Before having my current Rodriguez built (may I recommend R+E Cycles in Seattle?), I was using a Benotto track bike on the road (yes, I put brakes on it). The frame broke after only 38,000 km. When I raced in Mexico, I'd always hear about the racing team's Benotto's breaking. I don't know, Windsor might be better, but I would tend to go with a more trusted marque. I've put about 60,000 km so far on the steel Rodriguez, with no sign of the frame "softening" or making funny noises.

But don't worry about n+1 until you know exactly what size and design you'll need. You've got lots of time to work up to your big rides, lots of learning to do, and the bike is the least of it. The worst thing you could do is to invest in an expensive bike now that's not suitable to your needs, and that discourages you from riding. Just ride that Windsor into the ground, and have fun doing it.

Luis

Carbonfiberboy 

Lots of 10% and better grades around here, along with long 5% climbs. I'm in my granny ring a lot of the time.
To the OP: gearing is measured in gear-inches (GI), a rather odd quantity computed for convenience, rather than any intrinsic meaning. GI=(teeth in front ring)/(teeth in back cog) X 27 (for 700c bikes). In western WA, low gears with GI of 25-30 work well, lots of climbing in the 30-40 GI range. So however you want to get there. When trying to figure this out, I make a spreadsheet with several options in it and see how best to get some decent close ratios in the ranges in which I'm interested.

I rode an old 12-speed Mercier, a real beast, for several years before I figured out what I really wanted. Then I bought a carbon Trek, what Lance won his first Tour on. Great rando bike. Best thing to do with bike and gearing choices: show up and see what other folks are running. You'll see most folks have about the same thing, just different models of it. Cervelo has become quite popular. Litespeed TI is popular. Not that many Treks - too plebian I think.

Cousin Jack

Well, I found this old review again, and I'm pretty sure I'll stick with the Windsor...at least long enough to see if I really have the desire and cojones to ride the distances you folk talk about...... it's a comfortable bike, kind of like a big, plush, '59 Desoto! It rambles peacefully down the road...takes a block and a half to decide to turn, but, I didn't spend 5Gs either! Lol....

https://voices.yahoo.com/product-revi...88.html?cat=16

Pretty excited, actually...... but I will count my rear cogs and start educating myself on gear ratios. We have hills in Kittitas County, but nothing like you have over there....

Sekhem

I'm a geezer too. I started riding brevets after not being on a bike for30 yrs, did 2 SR series and a 1200K even tho I rode my first century the year before. The recovery from that year was truly ugly. Don't do what I did. I should have known better- we study aging and exercise at work.

If you've spent significant parts of your middle aged years being a couch potato and are just now getting into the fitness thing (never mind the crazy fitness thing of riding a 1200K!) keep in mind that your history has taken a toll on your body. You should keep an eye on vascular -related issues. All of that inactivity early in life can be associated with greater vascular stiffness/hardening and that means you should keep in touch with your doctor about your blood pressure. Extended deconditioned periods combined w/ vascular issues might mean that you'll see slower conditioning progress then you're expecting so be gentile with yourself. On the same page of being kind with yourself- be aware that things like hunger and thirst reflexes are blunted as we age so plan your fuel/liquid intake and don't just depend on how you feel. Ditto on self management around electrolytes/hypothermia/hyperthermia (you may feel fine but actually have a core temp that's cooking your brain). If you have the opportunity to do regular weight bearing exercise DO IT (cyclists loose bone density at a fast rate and with aging maintaining muscle mass becomes more difficult unless you work at it). You've mentioned that with retirement you have lots of time to train. Get some solid advice from somebody who knows what they're doing to help you understand the correct recovery management for your body. RIDING LOTS may not give you better results than RIDING SMART. The SMART part is on and off bicycle nutrition and adequte time off to let your body recover from riding long distances. I've discovered that the recovery part of training is the hardest aspect to dial in and it's becoming even more important as I age. Finally, unless your doctor tells you that there's a medical reason to take testosterone (you are clinically hypogonadal) don't be tempted to juice up thinking it's going to turn you into an UBER cyclist. We've done studies on T supplementation in older men in context of exercise. Long story short... just do the exercise.

good luck on achieving your goal of a 1200K and remember to be kind to yourself and have fun!

Cousin Jack

Thank you, sir, for your advice and counsel..... I'm not a couch potato; I've been a climber, cross-country/downhill skier, and a bicyclist of various disciplines nearly all my life. We are fortunate and live in a small town with a 1700 ft elevation gain, two mile one way, hiking trail within minutes of my front door that I've climbed, often with packs of 25-35 pounds, at least two times a week since 1974 (!). For twelve years now, I've been an alpine ski patroller and I patrol about 30 shifts a winter. I also have a free weight, modest gym in our extra bedroom. This summer, I decided to summit Rainier for my seventieth birthday...we didn't get it done, primarily because of the late spring and miserable weather in the Pacific Northwest, and we left for an extended vacation in Italy in the third week of June.... I did, however, climb some lesser peaks, and reached Camp Muir on Rainier -- didn't feel exceptionally great, but I felt okay....gonna get it next summer for sure!

So, I think I'm in fair shape, but I do appreciate you remarks, especially about recovery..... I'm a typical Type A, and that may be a problem. I'll pay heed. And again, thank you!

Carbonfiberboy 

I've only been up Rainier twice, last time for my 60th. I'm usually OK at altitude. I want to do it again for my 70th, in 3 years. You ever backcountry ski? Ski ascent? Ski up to Muir next spring?

Cousin Jack

Interesting that you ask! Last summer, right after trudging up to Muir, I went out and bought some AT bindings and skins for my Dynastar Legend 8800s.... And my thinking was that it would be easier to skin up to Muir, or other volcanoes, and quicker to get down if trouble looms.... one of the conditioning plans I have is to skin up at the ski areas where I patrol several times a shift....would be very interested in a spring Muir ascent. Do you ever ski at Snoqualmie Pass? I patrol at Summit East Saturdays, and Summit West Sundays..... keep in touch and let's get together sometime?

Carbonfiberboy 

I have a weekday pass at Stevens along with all the other nearby geezers. Met a very good skier who was almost 90. Good skier, but did the geezer shuffle. Gotta keep hiking, I think. I PMed you.