Improving your sprint
#26
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Sprinting is not what Fudgy is really after if I read his post right. If I am mistaken, apologies. But what he seemed to be after was separation, which is a bit of a different animal because by definition in can't be a maximal effort. Really two different skill set with pretty different tactical considerations and physical requirements.
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Sprinting is not what Fudgy is really after if I read his post right. If I am mistaken, apologies. But what he seemed to be after was separation, which is a bit of a different animal because by definition in can't be a maximal effort. Really two different skill set with pretty different tactical considerations and physical requirements.
But thanks all for the tips. I will add in gym/strength work this year. Carving out 1/2 hour 3x/week to go turn my legs to jelly should, if nothing else, help with muscle recruitment and give me some noob gains with strength. If it carries over to the bike great, if not, I can say I tried.
#29
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Just curious how the strength building woks in terms of keeping a good body mass balance for competitive cycling. If you spend a decent amount of time in the gym, you'll gain strength and likely help improve your sprint. However, does this adversely affect the ability to climb?
Not to totally hijack, but I started cycling this year and my history of athletics goes from distance running from 1994-2008ish to a lot of exclusive strength training from 2009-2013. My body mass increased about 30 pounds during those 4 years. Since beginning cycling earlier this year I've dropped about 20 pounds, but still carry 195lbs at 6'3". I fear that if I resume strength training over the winter, I'll get dropped trying to climb a highway overpass as I currently struggle in the hills as it is. I'm a cat 4 and can hang around and be part of the pack sprint in cat 3/4 races if its flat (crits and road up to 75m), but add some hills and I'm off the back pretty quick.
I've been told I am a sprinter by a few folks that I ride with (I'd say I'm a slow one of that) and will likely focus on flatter crits and road races next year because of my hill struggles. I'd like to enhance the sprinting ability, but not at the cost of not being able to be in contention at the end of a race. So, I'm thinking one or two days with weights (squats, deads, cleans, etc) and focus more of my time on the bike.
I guess not really a direct question in there, but maybe more confirmation of my rationale???
Not to totally hijack, but I started cycling this year and my history of athletics goes from distance running from 1994-2008ish to a lot of exclusive strength training from 2009-2013. My body mass increased about 30 pounds during those 4 years. Since beginning cycling earlier this year I've dropped about 20 pounds, but still carry 195lbs at 6'3". I fear that if I resume strength training over the winter, I'll get dropped trying to climb a highway overpass as I currently struggle in the hills as it is. I'm a cat 4 and can hang around and be part of the pack sprint in cat 3/4 races if its flat (crits and road up to 75m), but add some hills and I'm off the back pretty quick.
I've been told I am a sprinter by a few folks that I ride with (I'd say I'm a slow one of that) and will likely focus on flatter crits and road races next year because of my hill struggles. I'd like to enhance the sprinting ability, but not at the cost of not being able to be in contention at the end of a race. So, I'm thinking one or two days with weights (squats, deads, cleans, etc) and focus more of my time on the bike.
I guess not really a direct question in there, but maybe more confirmation of my rationale???
#30
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I'll try though I know CDR has some good stuff on this.
You have flat out speed sprinters, Cavendish for example, he needs a fast leadout and then pulls through as the last man with flat out speed and equally impressive jump, though it is truly only a couple hundred meters at best.
You have those that have a violent jump (stein for example) and is very hard to counter as those that use that type of jump usually sit in and jump right at their max sprint distance
There are sprinters that need a leadout and those that have sheer raw horsepower.
There are group sprinters (i.e. those that come out of the field) and are a little more aggressive.
As I know you are crit focussed you need to evaluate what type of sprinter "you" are.
Here is my definition of me:
Aggressive - as I am a group sprinter I need to be as I don't have a huge jump - if there finish line is 100-200 meters from the last corner it is going to hurt me.
Huge power - never really did any huge sprints but estimate I would max out around 2,000 watts when I raced at 180, FTP north of 400
Preferred sprint for me is one starting from a very high speed, 38+ with a long run in (think Tour type sprints) as I don't need to worry about guys with a big jump playing that card
And I can tell you exactly, almost to the meter how long I can sprint at 100% effort. When surveying a crit course I calculate backwards from the finish line where I intend to start my sprint.
A lot of it works out to calculated science and understanding your strengths/weaknesses as well as those of the people you are racing.
The big difference is I know "me" and what I can and can't do. If I am outgunned knowing that the sprint will not suit me I am a little lazy and let the cards fall where they may.
You have flat out speed sprinters, Cavendish for example, he needs a fast leadout and then pulls through as the last man with flat out speed and equally impressive jump, though it is truly only a couple hundred meters at best.
You have those that have a violent jump (stein for example) and is very hard to counter as those that use that type of jump usually sit in and jump right at their max sprint distance
There are sprinters that need a leadout and those that have sheer raw horsepower.
There are group sprinters (i.e. those that come out of the field) and are a little more aggressive.
As I know you are crit focussed you need to evaluate what type of sprinter "you" are.
Here is my definition of me:
Aggressive - as I am a group sprinter I need to be as I don't have a huge jump - if there finish line is 100-200 meters from the last corner it is going to hurt me.
Huge power - never really did any huge sprints but estimate I would max out around 2,000 watts when I raced at 180, FTP north of 400
Preferred sprint for me is one starting from a very high speed, 38+ with a long run in (think Tour type sprints) as I don't need to worry about guys with a big jump playing that card
And I can tell you exactly, almost to the meter how long I can sprint at 100% effort. When surveying a crit course I calculate backwards from the finish line where I intend to start my sprint.
A lot of it works out to calculated science and understanding your strengths/weaknesses as well as those of the people you are racing.
The big difference is I know "me" and what I can and can't do. If I am outgunned knowing that the sprint will not suit me I am a little lazy and let the cards fall where they may.
I use coaches (why does one get a coach thread) and I have attended specialty sprint training sessions put on my them. In learning to sprint, every sprinter knows the mark on the course where he will begin his sprint. Most sprints are about 20 pedal strokes. One gets in their sprint gear and rides back 20 pedal strokes and finds their mark. We practiced sprints going down a hill that flattens and we hit a mark and had to be in our sprint gear and then drill it. Sprinting requires great execution as well as strength and endurance. If you want to improve your sprint, hire a sprint coach.
Now this is very basic sprinting 101 and we have very accomplished racers here who probably do it differently. However, every sprinter must know his mark. Part of knowing your mark is knowing yourself.
Besides weight training there is plyometrics. Here is a video on box jumping that is pretty good since he describes how to box jump and the progression.
#31
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Hey Hermes you would almost think I know what I am talking about
As I, and others, have said - the devil's in the details...
Sometimes it is the smallest thing that can make the difference.
As I, and others, have said - the devil's in the details...
Sometimes it is the smallest thing that can make the difference.
#33
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sometimes I go here >
sometimes I go there >>>
sometimes I have to go this hard +++++
sometimes I only have to go this hard ++
it depends.
I want to win every sprint. Not just the ones that unfold according to my mind's perfect plan.
sometimes I go there >>>
sometimes I have to go this hard +++++
sometimes I only have to go this hard ++
it depends.
I want to win every sprint. Not just the ones that unfold according to my mind's perfect plan.
#34
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Watching the videos you had up a while ago from Bethel I can tell the exact spot you start getting ansy pansy...
#35
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loose. plan c is as likely to happen as plan a. guys who don't have another plan usually end up sitting up.
#36
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In my short lived racing experience thus far I have noticed one thing about sprinters: Almost all of them train to a certain extent with fast group rides that finish with a sprint line. For me, aside from practice, I was only able to sprint on maybe 2-3 races that would have made any significance to my placement. So, for some of the newer racers I think it is important to just get out there and place equal or higher importance on actually sprinting against others as well as doing your own spring drills.
#37
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In my short lived racing experience thus far I have noticed one thing about sprinters: Almost all of them train to a certain extent with fast group rides that finish with a sprint line. For me, aside from practice, I was only able to sprint on maybe 2-3 races that would have made any significance to my placement. So, for some of the newer racers I think it is important to just get out there and place equal or higher importance on actually sprinting against others as well as doing your own spring drills.
You should ride with the group that leaves from 5 points on Saturday. There is a sprint point after about 15 miles I think. Get Travis, Patrick or Sully to wind up and sprint them. That will be a good eye opening experience. Not sure that I could catch Trav on a short sprint he accelerates so hard.
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In my short lived racing experience thus far I have noticed one thing about sprinters: Almost all of them train to a certain extent with fast group rides that finish with a sprint line. For me, aside from practice, I was only able to sprint on maybe 2-3 races that would have made any significance to my placement. So, for some of the newer racers I think it is important to just get out there and place equal or higher importance on actually sprinting against others as well as doing your own spring drills.
#39
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That's an interesting point, I know Farrar takes it as far as using a scooter at the velodrome. Is there another alternative for those of us who don't have a friend with a scooter to pace us? Maybe starting springs from a slight downhill or something?
#40
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You can start downhilll, change a wide variety of conditions to get the speed up.
#42
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I got way bigger fish to fry in training than my sprint. This piddly FTP would be a good start haha.
#43
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It seems silly to say "I will sprint from this exact spot" to me, I've never done that. It all depends on how the race unfolds.. sometimes you can just "wait" to get around the last corner, sometimes it makes sense to attack before that. It really depends I think.
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After all, arriving at the finish with more gas in the tank (better FTP) will help you a lot more than having a huge peak number but little gas in the tank.
#45
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No wins, couple podiums on sprint finishes with 75+ fields, couple of sprint wins out of fields with a break up the road, and sprint wins out of a break with a guy or two up the road. Just need to work on my tactics more and stop letting guys get up the road even further in front of me!
#47
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My recent experience:
I took a few forced months off the bike this summer due to an accident. My miles went way down and are still down as I am not training on the road, only on gravel paths and mostly residential areas.
During this time I have been going to PT twice a week. It is more like weight training than PT and I can feel the results when I do get on the bike. My "high cardio" is not what it used to be (as in I probably could not hang long term with the leaders in a race at the moment) but I can lay down some serious short term power now with my improved leg and core strength. My weight has only gone up 5 lbs and recently, on my cross bike, got my third fastest time ever on a hill I use for repeats despite not riding hills for 4 months. Even with my injured leg, I can equal my shorter personal road bike records on some segments despite now being on a heavier cross bike with only 40lbs of tire pressure and knobbies.
When I am rested and go for a little cross ride with my Wife, my legs feel juiced and I can rip. Weight lifting, squats, lunges, curtis p's, leg presses, etc...will improve your sprint. It is up to you learn your body and how much lifting is too much and dial in your training with a variety of exercises not just riding more and hoping that you will turn into a sprinter. Make some muscle and you will make some power.
I plan to return to road racing next spring (Wife is not happy), but will be doing the bulk of my training off road, in the gym, on the trainer, or riding in circles around a nearby school campus.
I took a few forced months off the bike this summer due to an accident. My miles went way down and are still down as I am not training on the road, only on gravel paths and mostly residential areas.
During this time I have been going to PT twice a week. It is more like weight training than PT and I can feel the results when I do get on the bike. My "high cardio" is not what it used to be (as in I probably could not hang long term with the leaders in a race at the moment) but I can lay down some serious short term power now with my improved leg and core strength. My weight has only gone up 5 lbs and recently, on my cross bike, got my third fastest time ever on a hill I use for repeats despite not riding hills for 4 months. Even with my injured leg, I can equal my shorter personal road bike records on some segments despite now being on a heavier cross bike with only 40lbs of tire pressure and knobbies.
When I am rested and go for a little cross ride with my Wife, my legs feel juiced and I can rip. Weight lifting, squats, lunges, curtis p's, leg presses, etc...will improve your sprint. It is up to you learn your body and how much lifting is too much and dial in your training with a variety of exercises not just riding more and hoping that you will turn into a sprinter. Make some muscle and you will make some power.
I plan to return to road racing next spring (Wife is not happy), but will be doing the bulk of my training off road, in the gym, on the trainer, or riding in circles around a nearby school campus.
Last edited by Number400; 10-25-13 at 01:51 PM.
#48
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Do any of you sprint from a seated position? Everyone I know sprints from a standing position except me. Is standing more efficient/better when it comes to sprinting? I have done well, so am hesitant to try in a race. When training for sprints, I cannot go as long or as hard when standing as I can from sitting. So I might have smaller numbers, but I can last longer when seated, and assuming I am in the right place at the end, that seems to be to my advantage. Will I eventually be a better sprinter if I am standing?
#49
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Then you need to train the muscles to deliver the speed.
I believe 1,000,000,000,000,000% in gym work as I believe speed can be developed there as well as anywhere else. Muscles don't know the difference, they respond to load and that's it.
1,200 watts at 180 should be achievable, it just takes focus and discipline.
I believe 1,000,000,000,000,000% in gym work as I believe speed can be developed there as well as anywhere else. Muscles don't know the difference, they respond to load and that's it.
1,200 watts at 180 should be achievable, it just takes focus and discipline.
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Do any of you sprint from a seated position? Everyone I know sprints from a standing position except me. Is standing more efficient/better when it comes to sprinting? I have done well, so am hesitant to try in a race. When training for sprints, I cannot go as long or as hard when standing as I can from sitting. So I might have smaller numbers, but I can last longer when seated, and assuming I am in the right place at the end, that seems to be to my advantage. Will I eventually be a better sprinter if I am standing?