needmoreair

There's no reason to be in the 4s or 5s or even 3s more than one season. If you've been in the same category for more than one season, then that's what I'm referring to.

And I'm trying to help (badly, I realize) cut out the "figuring things out" because I see the same things all the time. You're not going to solo off the front to win a Cat 4 or 5 race. Yes, yes, I know we can all name an instance where that has happened, but let's be real. Those guys aren't on here asking when to attack, right?

So for those that are seeking the advice, the advice of sitting in and getting yourself mixed up in the sprint is applicable 99% of races (even in breaks, you'll be sprinting). Going out and trying to figure out what you're capable of really doesn't matter, because you're in the 3s/4s/5s and unless you're transitioning from the elite level of another sport, most of the field is going to be similarly capable.

So you have to race smarter than them.

We just have different opinions, I guess. I think guys should get out of the 5s and 4s absolutely as quickly as possible because you're really not racing at an indepth level there. The guys that get out the quickest are the guys that are coming from another sport and are super good or the guys that are racing the smartest and getting the results in the sprints.

shovelhd

You might say. And I bet I'm not alone.

botto 

Well, considering what this forum has become, is that such a surprise?

shovelhd

You gotta start contributing. Help bring the signal level up.

echappist

Of course, the qualifier here is It all depends pn how much you race. You can get all your upgrade point in a span of ten or fewer races or cobble together the points by doing 30+ races per year
And how many lower cat races are really that hard at the end? I've done exactly one such race. Six corners, windy, and not a lot of straightaway to move up. You end up in the top ten from two laps out, you end up in the top ten at the finish. But this is rare. Much more often you have a clumped field in the final lap.
i don't consider myself exceptionally strong, but i've learned enough (much of it by reading thing from this place) to know when to attack and get a race winning break going. Barely at 4-4.2 w/kg when a third or more of the field (collegiate B) were probably comparable, but i learned all about attacking the cross wind, etc., that i recognize when to initiate/latch on while similar or stronger riders got caught out. That and doing specific workouts helped to give me an edge over others to whom i'd lose in a hill climb.

botto 

ok.

gsteinb

calm down.

botto 

if you say so, sheriff.

grolby

+ 1. The post about how using attacks to make a selection in the field is silly and useless was cringe-worthy. Actually, for a strong rider on the right course, attacking to thin the field can be a very effective strategy.

I just want to add that you don't need to be an aerobic monster to make a break work. You may need some help rather than going solo, but you need to be able to put in your dig at the front, rotate back and reserve. That was an important realization for me, because I'm definitely not an aerobic monster. And I'm not going to win a pack sprint, either. But I can make it into breaks if I try. Just about any type of rider can have breaks as a major element of race strategy. After all, recognizing when to attack or which attacks to follow is much more about race craft than raw power.

As for when to attack, the answer is pretty much any time you want. It depends upon why you're attacking (forcing a selection? Going for a prime? Trying to make the winning break happen?), the mood of the field, your own abilities. Attacking during a lull when everyone is fresh is a bad idea... except when no one feels like lifting the pace to chase you because they figure it's too early and they'll bring you back in good time. Attacking from the very front of the field is a bad idea... unless you punch it through a chicane or corner exit and get a gap as the field can't react until they're through. Attacking on a descent is a bad idea... except that it can be very effective if you're a powerful rider, because chasing on a descent, or with a tailwind for that matter, requires big watts just to hold a wheel when it's hardest to put those watts down.

Just as a quick example, it seemed like most of the attacks in the 3/4 race at Bethel would go on the hill at the finish. Attacking on a hill seems obvious, but the reason those attacks could be effective wasn't the hill per se, it was the long sweeping slight downhill onto the backstretch from the top of the hill. Get on the wheel on the hill, you're fine. Stuck with a gap going around turn one, you're going to be working very hard to close it. On the flip side, get a gap on the hill and hold it around the first corner, you're going to be hurting people. Run out of steam at the top, you've just burned a match for nothing. "Attack over the top of the hill" is pretty common advice to newer racers, but I see a lot of people not internalizing it very well.

Creakyknees

Anyway, the OP is asking the wrong question. It's not "when" to attack, it's "why"
- to go for the win
- to instigate a break or a chase
- to set up a counter for a teammie
- to wake up the legs
- because it's fun
- to inflict pain and consternation on your adversaries
- for training
- as a test of your form
etc.

Remember the rule, never put your nose in the wind without a reason.

happybday29475

Good thread, interesting differing opinions.

How about if we move this from hypothetical to practical? First crit of the season is coming up in Colorado. 4 corner crit; start on top, descend 50' in a little under a minute over two legs of the course, , 1 minute / 50' climb back to start/finish. All corners are wide and large-radius except for the corner at the bottom of the hill which is sharp and exits onto the narrowest road of the course (crashes happen here). Actually it's not too different from the Bethel course but maybe a bit shorter and with a sharp-right hander right at the bottom of the hill.
Course

So, for category 4's, where would you think the best place to attack might be for somebody relatively outstanding in (using Coggan's power divisions) 5" power? 1' power? 5' power? 20' power?

(I get that first contact with the enemy obviates battle plans, but the planning might be instructive...of course an expert would make good decisions as the race unfolded).

Ygduf

Where and when did you go through the categories?

I mean, I did go through the 4s in like 15 races and 3s in 22ish, but **** ain't easy. I definitely picked and chose what was best for me.

To say "anyone" can do it means you think that in a season there's enough points to go around for everyone to upgrade. It's just not the case.

We're getting into Kant's philosophies here, but what you're advocating would make for some tremendously ****ty racing and would produce a load of really ****ty one-dimensional racers.

echappist

selection bias at its best...

waterrockets 

No, I'm getting you to acknowledge your ridiculous response.

I'm that guy, and I've had a 2 on my license (since downgraded). I've won my share of races. Two years ago, I suffered a major health event and am still missing 15% of my power. Racing w/out attacks bores me, and this sport takes too much time and money to participate in a boring fashion. I will sit in to support the team's plan, but most of the time the plan is relentless attacking, and it's a successful plan.

Maybe you should "sit in" here for a bit and learn who we all are. If you keep this up, you'll be trolled into a banning.

Racer Ex 

A good attack is where location meets circumstance to create separation. Add a 10-15 mph wind to that course and every 90 degree change in direction creates a different dynamic. Add or subtract a rider or team and it changes again.

Attacks are a series of high speed flow charts. First line item question is can you get separation?

jmikami

I have not seen this advice yet, but don't attack until you have trained for it ... ie done a few weeks of interval work. As a person who sucks wheel more than attacks and watches attack after attack fail, especially at the lower levels, better training is likely your key. Get out there and suffer for a few weeks, hard. Do 2 and 3 minute repeats until you can't do them anymore, then rest up and do more, because that is what it takes to make an attack work.

Also communication, most breaks work in the Cat 1/2 races because those guys know each other and talk or don't even need to talk. They also have teammates who either block or patrol the front or are at least known by others to be waiting to counter attack. So why pull in break A, when you know his teammate is going to attack to make break B, that helps to detour the chase. Sure it always takes a few attacks to find a group that works well with the right teams, but there is lots of unsaid communication going on in a cat 1/2 break that just doesn't exist with riders at the lower cats. I have seen far more breaks work at the 1/2 level because of this reason, IMO.

That said, I agree with the people who say just attack, and then attack again, but also be patient and don't kill yourself. Eventually you will get good at it, or tired of it and figure out that is not your style. Trying something is better than nothing, but also do at least one race where you do nothing buy suck wheel all race long, sit in 10th place and just suck wheel, never pull through until 1 lap/1 km to go then move up and prep for a sprint and hold on as long as possible for the jump and follow wheels until you can pop a sprint with 200 meters to try to follow those who do. Maybe you are a sprinter, but waste too much energy trying to attack all the time.

As for communication, you can try to talk to your fellow races who may or may not want to attack with you, but you will need strong and willing people to do this. However, unless there are a number of teams in your race you are missing a critical component of the attack ... the teamwork needed to pull it off.

Oh, and don't attack into a headwind, unless it is near the end of the headwind. Riders will want to stick to your wheel and be able to do it easily in a headwind and it will be 10 times harder for you and 10 times easier for a group to catch you. Attack at the end of the headwind from the middle to back depending on the size. You can easily get 5 to 10 MPH jump using the headwind and then the tailwind is where the break is won. Riders in the group can't go much faster than you in a tailwind and tailwinds suck for riders who are not fit as it takes away the draft and the numbers advantage of the pack. Put the power down on the tailwind and watch your break grow. Then settle in and hope that someone bridges up to you, because solo breaks really suck bad.

Good luck and try something.

Racer Ex 

Only thing I wouldn't agree with here is not attacking into a headwind unless there's a course shift...sometimes going off into a headwind either solo or with a small strong group can work well. Not many people like to ride at the front into a headwind, especially if they are towing a teammate of the break guy(s) around.

A rough headwind will also create gaps in the field which makes any chase less organized; this is your friend. The most absurd break I ever saw work was into a headwind that was blowing to 70, it went 2 miles into an 80 mile RR.

needmoreair

No, no qualifier. 10 races or 30, you still have to pull the results. If you have the upgrade points then there's that, but if you're spending entire seasons scrounging for every 6th place you can get, then that's an issue that speaks about your racing. And there are lots of racers doing that.

As most of us know, there's a difference between being strong enough to be in the pack at the end, and being strong enough to be at the front of the pack in a position to strike at the end. And that's precisely what I'm referring to. And that's hard. It doesn't matter if you're a 5 or a 1. And you can't say it isn't hard unless you have an uninterrupted string of top 5s from every race you've ever done. It's hard to put out the power to get into that position and maintain it. That takes fitness and that takes racing smart so you're not wasting that fitness.

I don't know about comparable at 4.2 w/kg. I raced elite crit nats at 4.4 one year. FTP doesn't mean jack when you know how to race and have race-specific power. FTP is great for time trials and very long hill climbs. Way more important things in crits and road races. Seriously.

needmoreair

I'm genuinely not quite sure if you understand that most races are won in sprints. If you don't, hopefully you now do.

You were that guy who kept attacking without ever getting a successful break? Yet you won lots of races and got to a two? So either you figured out how to get results minus the pointless attacking, or your attacks stuck?

I'm not sure which. Are you? Do you want to reread that bit you quoted? Might help with the qualifying. But let's be serious. Who cares?! You apparently figured out racing to some degree so I'm sure it's not you.

Sit in here more? So I can keep learning? You guys know so much already. I'm learning butt loads about how go out and slay four and five fields with Jacky Durand-esque attacks. Wish I'd known all that when I was a four. Probably could have stuck around another year or two searching for that break that finally stuck.

needmoreair

What was the difference between you placing and getting upgrade points and not?

Because when I really sat down and thought about that, that's when I started placing and getting upgrade points.

I've seen a lot of guys doing the same thing over and over and over again and not getting the success they SHOULD have with their fitness. Do you guys not ever find it absurd how well some people do in training rides versus races?

What's the reason for that?

I am by no means AT ALL saying it's easy. It's absolutely not. But I am emphatically stating that if you are a strong Cat 5 or strong Cat 4 or strong Cat 3 and you are going with moves and really racing for it but continually coming up short, then you have got to start looking at how you race.

You have got to start looking at where you're burning matches and where you're coming up short. If you're coming up short in the sprint because you can't hold position and are stuck in the wind, then that's something to look at. If you're coming up short because you're so gassed from moving up to the front, then that's another thing to look at. If you're coming up short when you stand up to sprint and have nothing there because you spent the whole day trying to get on that elusive break that probably never even came close to sticking, then there's that, too.

But I digress. Some of you think it's boring or one-dimensional or whatever and that's fine. That's your race. If your goal is to place, though, then maybe save the heroics and super exciting awesome flying attacks for training rides and be smart in a race where the only thing that matters is crossing the finish line.

gsteinb

admittedly I'm kinda confused. For me the subtext in the question 'when's the best time to attack' is the word "successful." So I don't really think anyone is advocating for attacking just for ****s and giggles, so most of the argumentation around the point is, well, pointless.

The guys I know that blew through the lower rankings quickest in recent years were FTP monsters who could just ride off the front. One is a low level euro pro now. Some are out of the sport. Most of them couldn't sprint out of a paper bag.

If you can't sprint in a crowd, knowing when to get away and stay away could be useful. Getting away and getting caught every time probably isn't great, but if you can stick it once in a while….

One of the really really good masters racers, and a very good cat 1 who I have a friendship and rivalry with doesn't particularly like crowds (he's on TV and is a bit crash adverse). He'll attack repeatedly. Get caught a lot. Get hung out quite often as well. But…he sticks it enough to win maybe half a dozen races a year.

kindablue

I've seen a 4 just power off the front in that race, but his w/kg was easily at a 2 level (he upgraded after a handful of races). After the "hill" the field is usually gassed and if someone has the raw power that'd be the time to go. And with the 4s, outta sight outta mind.
As ex said different weather conditions will change how the course races...

With that hill to the finish, you've gotta get to and hold a spot close to the front a few laps before "1 to go." Unless you can massively overpower the field, moving up on the hill then sprinting for the finish won't get you anywhere near top 5.

echappist

perhaps i didn't phrase this as clearly. my point is that it's more about how well you do per outing vs how well you do per year. i'd even go further as to say we probably agree on this as i exactly had in mind the person who get 1 or 2 points in a road race. regardless, if all you do is 10-15 races a year, upgrading is a bit of a tall order even for a cat-4. This is especially the case for 3--->2 considering that it takes 50% more points to go from 3--->2 than it does from 4--->3.

which pretty much means Greg Lemond and a selected few others are the only American who can say whether a race is hard.

What you wrote previously actually makes more sense. A race is hard when, as you say, you barely top out 900W yet still place on the podium. This is when a rider with a decent sprint gets so sapped that his jump is essentially reduced by 400 W from fresh, and 200 W from what's expected at the end of a normal race.

It sounds like you agree with what I wrote and is disagreeing with what you originally wrote, toward which my original post was directed. In that post you stated that you would advise people to sit in rather than learning when and how to make smart, winning attacks. Perhaps our definition differ a bit, as mine of a smart, winning attack is one that get you into a select, race winning break. But regardless, you are saying that the sole exception is when strong riders make a strong move on a very difficult part of the race

i countered that assertion because other than the 2-3 people who came with me or after whom i was chasing, there were 10 other equally strong if not stronger riders who missed it. In one particularly vivid example, i attacked as we turned into the crosswind, and by the time we turned again into the tailwind, we had 10 seconds, and that sealed the deal. There's a picture of when the 4 (eventually down to 3) person break was formed, and in the background you see 2-3 other riders desperately trying to get across. They never made it not because they weren't as strong, but rather because they had horrible position.

These things could be taught, and I would agree that there are things more important than FTP in crits and not as hard road races, but that runs counter to what you wrote below.

kensuf

Personally, I'd rather be DFL but having gone out swinging than mid-pack.

waterrockets 

That may be true, but around here, in the races I do, most of those sprints are from a successful breakaway.

Fine piece of investigative work there, Lou.