Should Bicycles be Registered
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Should Bicycles be Registered
Talking with the Utah DOT and local Politician's about why roads here are not more Bicycle friendly.
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
I'm just going to leave these here:
Cyclelicious » The Fourth Power Rule
Vehicle Weight and Road Damage
Cyclelicious » The Fourth Power Rule
Vehicle Weight and Road Damage
#3
aka Phil Jungels
And, don't forget that your other taxes also get rolled into road and construction fees.........................
And, your vote pays the pollyticians......................
And, your vote pays the pollyticians......................
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
You should tell Utah DOT that they aren't fooling anyone.
Utah gets more road funding than it contributes
- KSL News
Utah gets more road funding than it contributes
SALT LAKE CITY — Utah motorists are getting a pretty good bargain for the roads they drive on, a new report shows.According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office, from 2005 to 2009, every state in the country received more funding for highway programs than they contributed to the Highway Account of the Highway Trust Fund.
#5
Banned
You should tell Utah DOT that they aren't fooling anyone.
Utah gets more road funding than it contributes - KSL News
Utah gets more road funding than it contributes - KSL News
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Talking with the Utah DOT and local Politician's about why roads here are not more Bicycle friendly.
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
#8
Senior Member
I guarantee you any such plan would have low compliance, no enforcement and cost far more to administer than it would collect. It would simply be throwing away public money for the illusion of fairness. Though that hasn't stopped a plethora of what I like to call spite laws from being passed across the US covering a variety of issues.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Waterloo, ON
Posts: 431
Bikes: Surly Krampus
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As I understand it, bicycle registration has been tried and abandoned in many jurisdictions because the logistics were just impossible.
#10
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
We should register bikes just like we register shoes...
#11
2 Fat 2 Furious
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: England
Posts: 3,996
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp Disc, 2009 Specialized Tricross Sport RIP
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
Talking with the Utah DOT and local Politician's about why roads here are not more Bicycle friendly.
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
to this
If registration is universally required, who is going to stop 5-year-old Poppy and tell her she has to pay a fine because her bicycle isn't showing the correct tags? If registration is age-dependent, who is going to figure out whether "Keith" is really 15 (in which case he doesn't need tags) or 16 (in which case he does). It should be no surprise that he claims to be 15, but of course he doesn't have any ID because he's not old enough to have a driver's license. Or maybe he is and just claims not to be.
Unless bike registration carries a punitive cost relative to the bike it's not going to raise enough money to be worth the administration, and if it does carry a punitive cost the chances are there will just be huge levels of non-compliance. A bike isn't big enough to carry a numberplate like a motor vehicle so it's hard to see how you'd know whether a bike was registered or not.
That's before you consider the fact that the wear/damage caused by a bicycle to the road is such a tiny fraction of what a truck would cause the only way charges could be fair would be for them to be very small, which goes back to the issue of why a system that costs more to administer than it raises would help anybody.
__________________
"For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"
"For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"
#12
♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
Posts: 7,902
Bikes: Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Talking with the Utah DOT and local Politician's about why roads here are not more Bicycle friendly.
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
Big, fat "NO" to bike reg fees for more reasons than BF's servers could handle, byte-wise
Also, the politician(s) who spoke to you about gas taxes, etc, is using the same easy but totally incorrect excuse to further this agenda that all auto-jihadists use, everywhere. Road money comes from lots of different places, not just the pump and reg fees. If you want a quick, concise answer to how roads get paid for, go to a county budget meeting or sit in on one where a developer sells his latest bourgeois 'community' to the various boards and officials in charge of OK'ing it. Listen for the words "ingress", "egress" and listen to who will get stuck with the road construction and maintenance fees, later. We are already paying plenty of taxes and a disproportionate amount even if only going by our numbers and wear n tear we cause the roads. Car culture has been one of the hugest welfare sucks of our time. We should not have any more of the costs of maintaining that culture and mindset put on us, then what we suffer now. Enough's enough!
#14
24-Speed Machine
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wash. Grove, MD
Posts: 6,058
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I registered my bike, when I moved back to Maryland in 2007. But I didn't register my bike for the purpose of getting respect from motorists', and politicians. I registered my bike for the chance that it might be stolen. But the indirect problem is, even after a bike is registered. If it is stolen in another local jurisdiction, and there is no records' transparency from one jurisdiction to the next. Then you have to do all the legwork yourself to get your bike back.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Leeds UK
Posts: 2,085
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
ONE: register all bikes - which means identifying each and everyone, using manufacturer, model, colour and bike serial number (you know, the ones which are particularly vulnerable to rust and accident damage, unlike the Vehicle Identification Number found in motor vehicle engine compartments
TWO: double the size fo your state vehicle taxation/registration dept., since there will be as many bikes as mvs (probably) in the state (taxpayers will, of course, love this)
THREE: Design number plates suitable for each type of bike
FOUR: Pass legislation controlling where on bike no. plate should be placed (after report by technical experts on visibility, position, letter/no. size, etc.)
FIVE: Pass laws designating specific punishments for specific infractions regarding non-registration, non-standard no.plate installation, failure to maintain bike serial no. in a readable condition, etc.
SIX: train police and legal staff on said laws and encourage them to go after cycling miscreants - it would give them something to do in their copious spare time
SEVEN: Did I mention out-of-state cyclists for whom the law would not apply?
EIGHT: Decide on suitable registraion fee - it would have to cover the cost of admninistering the scheme - which would be pretty much the same as that for mvs. Let us say that, for the sake of argument, the mv administration cost is $5 per application. Making suitable contribution to highway building and maintenance on top of that (in relation to the amount of money spent on specific cycling infrastructure and/or damage done to said infrastructure by bikes). How many bikes do you have - 2, 3, 4, 5? Therefore bike registration will be n x $x I'm sure that riders in Utah will be delighted to participate.
Etc., etc., etc.
It....will....not.... work
TWO: double the size fo your state vehicle taxation/registration dept., since there will be as many bikes as mvs (probably) in the state (taxpayers will, of course, love this)
THREE: Design number plates suitable for each type of bike
FOUR: Pass legislation controlling where on bike no. plate should be placed (after report by technical experts on visibility, position, letter/no. size, etc.)
FIVE: Pass laws designating specific punishments for specific infractions regarding non-registration, non-standard no.plate installation, failure to maintain bike serial no. in a readable condition, etc.
SIX: train police and legal staff on said laws and encourage them to go after cycling miscreants - it would give them something to do in their copious spare time
SEVEN: Did I mention out-of-state cyclists for whom the law would not apply?
EIGHT: Decide on suitable registraion fee - it would have to cover the cost of admninistering the scheme - which would be pretty much the same as that for mvs. Let us say that, for the sake of argument, the mv administration cost is $5 per application. Making suitable contribution to highway building and maintenance on top of that (in relation to the amount of money spent on specific cycling infrastructure and/or damage done to said infrastructure by bikes). How many bikes do you have - 2, 3, 4, 5? Therefore bike registration will be n x $x I'm sure that riders in Utah will be delighted to participate.
Etc., etc., etc.
It....will....not.... work
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: MN.
Posts: 239
Bikes: A MTB and something else with 2 pedals.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I can't even believe that this is being discussed!!! NO NO NO !!!
"Don't Tread on Me"
"Don't Tread on Me"
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,663
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5766 Post(s)
Liked 2,538 Times
in
1,404 Posts
Talking with the Utah DOT and local Politician's about why roads here are not more Bicycle friendly.
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
I get one answer, money. Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes and registration fee's.
In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
Then if we consider the impact of bicycles on the infrastructure, our fair share would be minimal. While in principal, I wouldn't mind making some sort of contribution to the roads, any effort to collect and enforce a fair bicycle fee would cost more to manage than it would bring in.
If we want to tax bicycles, a more logical way to do it would be through an excise tax collected on imports, which are the great majority of bicycles sold. Taxing $20.00 at the POE on all bicycles with wheels 26" or larger would generate upwards of $100M with little cost of collection and management.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#18
2 Fat 2 Furious
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: England
Posts: 3,996
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp Disc, 2009 Specialized Tricross Sport RIP
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
If roads are paid for from fuel taxes alone it's a fair point. Assuming there isn't a team of bean counters somewhere making sure that only some forms of tax get ring-fenced for roads it's probably safe to say they are funded from taxation in general. So a cyclist who stops and buys a cake will pay some form of sales taxes, probably in proportion to the damage their bike causes. Cyclists who rack up large mileages will buy more cereal bars and jelly babies, so pay more in taxes to fund the damage they cause to the roads.
Seems perfectly fair to me.
Seems perfectly fair to me.
__________________
"For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"
"For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
If we want to tax bicycles, a more logical way to do it would be through an excise tax collected on imports, which are the great majority of bicycles sold. Taxing $20.00 at the POE on all bicycles with wheels 26" or larger would generate upwards of $100M with little cost of collection and management.
I'm adamantly against registration, But I wouldn't be opposed to a federal excise and/or state sales tax on bikes and tires if the funds were used only for bicycle infrastructure.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,663
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5766 Post(s)
Liked 2,538 Times
in
1,404 Posts
I never insist on reserved funds. The reality is that there is already spending on bike infrastructure, so based on history, I'd expect that any new dollars reserved for bike infrastructure would be offset by reductions in funding from other sources.
Taxation and spending are like a massive BYOB party. Everyone brings, and everyone drinks, but it's bad form to look too closely at who brought what or or what they drink.
Taxation and spending are like a massive BYOB party. Everyone brings, and everyone drinks, but it's bad form to look too closely at who brought what or or what they drink.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I never insist on reserved funds. The reality is that there is already spending on bike infrastructure, so based on history, I'd expect that any new dollars reserved for bike infrastructure would be offset by reductions in funding from other sources.
Taxation and spending are like a massive BYOB party. Everyone brings, and everyone drinks, but it's bad form to look too closely at who brought what or or what they drink.
Taxation and spending are like a massive BYOB party. Everyone brings, and everyone drinks, but it's bad form to look too closely at who brought what or or what they drink.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,663
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5766 Post(s)
Liked 2,538 Times
in
1,404 Posts
I agree with that for the most part, but if we want more communities to do like bike friendly communities such as Seattle do, to be willing to invest more than current demand requires for future generations, wouldn't it be wise to contribute to that expense in this era of budget cuts?
For my part, I'd just as soon be rid of all the nickle and dime taxes, and have only straightforward broad based taxes flowing into a general fund, from which the needs of the community are financed. As it is now, nobody knows what the total taxes collected are, who pays what, and where it goes.
Having a population that doesn't know how services are financed is a bad recipe for running a republic.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
Still seems counter-productive. If bicycling is seen as producing some net public benefits in the form of a healthier populace, reduced pollution, less traffic congestion, etc. then if anything there should be public incentives to encourage more of it. Introducing an additional tax on it is then exactly the wrong thing to do since that is a disincentive. Seems more reasonable to increase taxes on activities that we want to discourage and use some of those funds for infrastructure that would encourage beneficial activities instead.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,663
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5766 Post(s)
Liked 2,538 Times
in
1,404 Posts
It might be, and OTOH I don't know that a low excise tax would have a measurable negative impact.
In any case, I'm not advocating for a tax, just saying that if public policy is to tax bicycles, an excise tax collected ta the POE is far more effective than a registration fee would be.
Either way, as I said before, I'm opposed to nickle and dime taxation on small segments of the economy based on political correctness or conduct perceived to be good or bad. IMO selective taxation is a formula for Balkanization of our society, and we need only look at the countless examples of what happens when folks start dividing themselves into sub groups.
In any case, I'm not advocating for a tax, just saying that if public policy is to tax bicycles, an excise tax collected ta the POE is far more effective than a registration fee would be.
Either way, as I said before, I'm opposed to nickle and dime taxation on small segments of the economy based on political correctness or conduct perceived to be good or bad. IMO selective taxation is a formula for Balkanization of our society, and we need only look at the countless examples of what happens when folks start dividing themselves into sub groups.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.