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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 04-18-05, 01:30 PM   #1
phidauex
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Any framebuilders?

Hi,

Anyone here build their own frames? I've welded on 'wacky' bikes before, but I've never made a 'serious' frame. I'm considering brazing together a lugged steel road/track style fixed gear frame (partly because it'll be easier, not so many brazons!), but I'm looking for geometry ideas.

What would be nice is if someone could recommend a lugset with good geometry for a road-oriented track frame, or suggest a 'classic' road/track frame who's geometry would be good to emulate. Pictures from the side work too, since you can plot over them in cad and make copycat frames.

My current hope is to do stainless lugs and painted steel tubes, and to build up a fork and stem to match. I can probably get away with using my ghetto jigs to align it all, and the brazing is not difficult. Really my biggest barrier is knowledge of proper bike angles, and good places to start looking at good frames.

peace,
sam
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Old 04-18-05, 02:41 PM   #2
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Mr D.Walker may chime in for your answer.

S/F<
CEYA!
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Old 04-18-05, 02:58 PM   #3
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I've thought about this too...except I've been thinking about carbon tube into custom machined aluminum lugs.
Have a look at BikeCad
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Old 04-18-05, 03:36 PM   #4
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A few links that might be helpful:

http://www.atnf.csiro.au/people/Suzy...beginning.html

http://web.archive.org/web/200110060...ey/tubing.html

http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/suppliers.html

ftp://draco.acs.uci.edu/pub/rec.bicycles/frame.build (more on the process of building)

I'd advise just looking at the lug sets at Ceeway, Henry James, etc. If you don't know what geometry you want, check out the geometries of well regarded frames.
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Old 04-18-05, 04:51 PM   #5
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Thanks for the suggestions. I'd seen a few of those links before, but the framebuilding class transcript was a new one to me!

Any suggestions for a well regarded frame for road use, but with a track bent? The surly steamroller seems like a popular one..

peace,
sam
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Old 04-18-05, 05:47 PM   #6
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I am going to Yamaguchi's class soon.

S/F<
CEYA!
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Old 04-18-05, 05:54 PM   #7
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hello. My name is Dave and I'm a framebuilder.
(everyone) Hello Dave.

I would say buy The Paterek Manual.
http://www.henryjames.com/patman.html
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Old 04-20-05, 03:14 PM   #8
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I just got done reading http://www.atnf.csiro.au/people/Suzy...beginning.html

I don't think I have the patience it takes to build a frame. I think I'd rather order one. I can't see saving money at it, either, considering I don't have a torch, or any tools. Not to mention nobody to help me learn to braze. Somehow I think a bicycle frame isn't the best "first project". Its too bad really.
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Old 04-21-05, 08:03 AM   #9
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The paterak manual seems to be the way to go. I've been checking local libraries, and no one seems to carry it. At 75$, it would almost be as expensive as my materials! But I suppose if it is the one definative manual, it would be worth it... Anyone got a used copy they want to sell?

Thanks for the frameforum.net link, I'm surprised I hadn't found that yet!

I think a nice frame would be a pretty cheap thing for me to put together. I've got the time, and a few good tools. I'd have to build up my own jigs and whatnot, but I've done that before for other things. I think it would be a fun project.

peace,
sam
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Old 04-21-05, 08:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phidauex
At 75$, it would almost be as expensive as my materials! But I suppose if it is the one definative manual, it would be worth it... Anyone got a used copy they want to sell?
You want the new one, I have a copy of both this new edition and the one before. This edition is much better. That said, Tim just released this recently, so I doubt if there are many people willing to part with it yet.

And materials for $75?? ZERO UNO is $70 for just one set, Columbus ZONA is maybe a little more, Thron a bit cheaper. Add a BB shell (~ $30, $40 for SS if you can find it), lugs ( ~$50 and up, stainless is more) and dropouts (Kirk Pacenti makes some nice ones for about $18 pair) and you're beyond there even before you get to filler rod, flux, oxy-acet, 80 grit. And i haven't even counted in a crown, blades, dropouts, steerer if you're making your own fork. It just keeps going up.

The Paterek book is a bargain at $75 if it keeps you from screwing up just one step that can cost you much more.
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Old 04-21-05, 10:50 AM   #11
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As an aside, as the framebuilders are here. I have an old carbon arc welder with a brazing attachment. Although it looks cool, I have no documentation on the heat it puts out etc, so I was wondering if anyone knew anything about these welders for welding modern tubing (the manual lists bicycles as something you can weld but that's about it)
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Old 04-21-05, 01:48 PM   #12
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Thanks for the response, Don

My carbon arc torch uses two carbon rods that, when put in proximity generate a flame. Apparently you can weld a lot of stuff but because you need a full helmet, not just goggles, it's hard to see your weld, so they can get ugly. I just wondered if someone had used it or no. I'll probably just chop a junker and see what happens.
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Old 04-21-05, 01:55 PM   #13
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I have a noob question about frame building. I'm thinking of building a lugged frame but I lack a welder. To do the brazing (or soldering) would I need more than a handheld propane torch?
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Old 04-21-05, 03:26 PM   #14
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To do brass and silver brazing you need a MAPP-air torch at the very least (and its usefulness is questionable) or preferably an oxy-actylene torch rig. Propane is good enough for soldering plumbing, but it isn't hot enough or controllable enough for brazing something the size of a frame.

Welding is something else entirely. If you are welding serious bike frames you'd want to use TIG welding, which is expensive to get into. I've MIG welded quite a bit on bikes, but always on beaters and tall bikes and stuff, which are usually made out of old heavy steel which MIGs just fine, the thin lightweight stuff a 'real' bike frame uses wouldn't hold up to the MIG...

A carbon arc welder would probably be good for making beaters and choppers and stuff, but again, I wouldn't expect you to have the control necessary to handle modern frame materials. Of course, there is only one way to find out. Auto darkening helmets start at around 50$, and improve your welds quite a bit, because you can position with the helmet down.

peace,
sam
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Old 04-21-05, 04:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phidauex
The paterak manual seems to be the way to go. I've been checking local libraries, and no one seems to carry it. At 75$, it would almost be as expensive as my materials! But I suppose if it is the one definative manual, it would be worth it... Anyone got a used copy they want to sell?

ebay, dammit!
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Old 04-21-05, 04:14 PM   #16
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Thanks for the info. I'll look into a torch. Yeah....more toys!
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Old 04-21-05, 04:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynikal
Thanks for the info. I'll look into a torch. Yeah....more toys!

Ebay for torches or check in your local classifieds in the tools section. You can sometimes luck out. You may also check if a local community college etc. runs brazing classes. You could take a class and use the torch too. I'm considering doing that.
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Old 04-21-05, 05:03 PM   #18
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Dear Framebuilders:
What is the word on the United Bicycle Institute's (Ashland, OR) Frame-building program? Here's the link, if you haven't heard of it.
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Old 04-21-05, 08:13 PM   #19
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thank you.
on a side-note, referencing your comments on new colnagos:
good call, mr walker. who needs an ernesto when we have a don?
thank you for representing the supply-side here on b.f. .. you're a precious resource.

(and that's all the ass-kissing i can dole out today.)
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Old 04-22-05, 08:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by jitensha_de_go!
Those appear to be the earlier versions. The 3rd edition has different cover art with a clear overlay and is bound, not in a binder.

If you could look at the 2 books side-by-side, the newest is so head and shoulders above that it's worth more than the extra $40 you'll pay. It also contains a full appendix with all his plans for fixtures that used to be available separately.
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