Sylvesta Copez

Hello,has anyone have or had experience using the Campy Record Pista Crankset and Bottom bracket on the Cinelli Parallax? Is there a better crankset? What are the pros and cons of the Record crankset,the Dura Ace?I will not be racing. Also,would be appreciative of any comments about the comparisons between Campy Record Hubs and Phil Woods.

veganbikes

I would say my top crankset would be the Sugino Super 75s with a Super Zen chainring, however those are expensive and I have yet to find a U.S. distro for them. Next in line for me would be those Phil Wood cranks however Campy has always made nice stuff and their Pista stuff is no exception. Everyone I have talked to who has used them or worked on them loves their Pista stuff.

I would probably go Campy over Dura Ace cranks simply because Campy still uses the quality square taper bottom bracket that has graced billions of bikes rather than going with odd proprietary splines as Shimano did with the DA cranks. I love Dura Ace and all of my bikes have a bit of DA on them (one is full DA 7400) but I would go Campy over DA in cranks easily because I love square taper so much.

Sylvesta Copez

Thank you Vegan for your imput,it was very appreciated.

Scrodzilla

So you are aware, Campy Record crank arms will hit the chain stays on a Parallax using the recommended 111mm ISO spindle. If you're dead set on using that crankset, you'll need to use 115mm ISO or 110mm JIS (which will essentially put your crank arms the same distance away from the center of the BB) and be ok with your chainline being off by a few mm.

#sugino754lyfe

veganbikes

No problem but listen to Scrod his shop deals in nothing but fixed gear and single speed bicycles. My shops have dealt in mostly geared bikes. Plus Sugino 75 is real nice the Super version was my top choice for a reason!

Sylvesta Copez

Thank you Scrodzilla.So,what would you recommend for a crankset and bottom bracket that will maintain the chain line of the Parallax and prevent the crank arms from hitting the chain stays?

Scrodzilla

Sugino 75!

Sylvesta Copez

Thank you Scrodzilla,would Rotor Track Crankset with Rotor Cups give me crank arm clearance over chain stays?

gfk_velo

Careful! Campag Pista is NOT a standard ISO taper and we have seen LH crank failures when mated to standard ISO tapers (including current Campag road BBs) and also when mounted to JIS.

We saw quite a few of these with the UK Hipster craze for mounting Campag Pista cranks to road-going bikes a few years ago - the Centaur 111 mm BB was used (because it's sealed for use in the rain, which the Pista BB isn't, for obvious reasons), with mechanics assuming that the tapers were the same ... one guy had three failures before he contacted us and we were able to explain ...

With JIS, you probably won't be getting enough engagement on the taper to be sure to avoid localised stress cracking. You'll be voiding any warranty as well.

Scrodzilla

I'm not trying to stir up a heated argument here but first of all, there aren't different kinds of ISO tapers (and if you want me to whip out my digital caliper, I gladly will). The non-drive side crank arm failures you're referring to most likely occurred due to people being ham-fisted maniacs who have a terrible habit of over-tightening everything. You're probably also referring to vintage record Pista cranks, which were prone to cracking even before they were being discovered by hipsters. I've never seen a modern Record Pista crank arm that was cracked around the taper.

Secondly, the current Record Pista BB is a sealed cartridge unit.

Lastly, there is more than enough taper engagement when using an ISO crank arm on a JIS taper. A good friend of mine (who rides a Parallax, coincidentally) has been using Record pista cranks installed on a 110mm JIS BB for a couple of years and he's ridden thousands of miles without any problems.

Sylvesta Copez

Thank you for your inputs so, I can use the Record crankset but with a JIS bottom bracket,this will not impact the chain line negatively,do I have that correct?
Has anyone put a Rotor crankset and cups on a Parallax, I would like some feedback,pro or con,thank you for any or all information?

Scrodzilla

Like I've already said, using a Record Pista on a 110mm JIS spindle will move your chainline out a few mm, which is 100% necessary if you want to use that crankset on that frame. It's not a big deal.

I have no experience installing a Rotor crankset on a Parallax so I can't really provide any input about that.

Sylvesta Copez

Thank you Scrod for your time,effort and patience in answering my questions.

Scrodzilla

No problem at all. I'm always here to help!

Wspsux

I hope to one day have such a ****** thread title.

gfk_velo

I don't do heated argument. I'm a technician, so I just point out the way it is. If others want to do what they want to do, I'm happy to advise in full but I am not about to go off on one. I would like to make the following, non contentious points, though ...

1. I run Campag's UK Service Centre as a contractor through my business, Velotech Cycling Ltd. We work on a variety of manufacturer's kit. I've been doing this stuff for 35+ years, for shops, continental and domestic pro teams and the like. We're not directly tied to Campagnolo but as a result of the work we do for them, I am in regular (practically daily) touch with the factory in Vicenza - the advice I gave came directly from the factory. According to the specs I have, the Pista BB is not a true ISO taper, the specs I have come from to the factory drawings and I have checked - the advice holds good that I gave. I presume the factory in Vicenza know - they make the kit after all.

2. The failiures that we saw in 2008 and 2009 that I referred to were on correctly-fitted current version (not legacy) cranks, in two cases installed by one of the very, very few mechs I'd trust to work on my own bike - ham-fisted is one thing he's not - in fact it was those failiures that prompted me to re-check the specs with the factory at that time. The dimensions and specsd have not changed since.

3. The Pista BB uses the same cartridge bearings as the Centaur BB but there are no external seal (BB-RE205), as can be clearly seen in the exploded diagrams online. The Pista BBs do, unfortunately, allow water in where the road BBs are far less likely to. Hence my comments.

4. Despite all advice to the contrary, some users do intermix JIS and ISO and indeed tapers that, like the Campag Pista tapers, are proprietory. Sometimes people get away with it, somtimes they don't. I've had to do it occasionally in the past but I absolutely would not recommend it. If we are sent damaged cranks back and we can see that the degree of engagement matches that of a JIS taper, we reject the warranty, just as Shimano probably would in the reverse case. Most manufacturers advise against such mixtures, as they know that in cases where it doesn't work out, they may be looking at a liability case.

The taper engagement in terms of area bearing load, on a JIS taper at the outer edge of the tolerance envelope specified for JIS and a broaching at the "small" end of the tolerance envelope specified for ISO can be 25% less than it should be ... and all of that engagement loss is at the "big" end of the taper. This is obvious - because the crank is not migrating so far onto the taper. The bigger end of the taper is far better at absorbing load and at resisting backlash. Hence, it's a lottery mixing the two.

Scrodzilla

I like that you quoted me twice.

Twice is nice!

Marvs_r00m

Hey guys, just learned a lot the hard way today. I have campy pista tracks and bb for my vigorelli shark, and then when I got them installed the the non-drive side crank hit the frame. Through endless internet searches I’m going to try out the centaur bb in a 115.5mm that I had to order through eBay. Will this length mess with my chain line? Also wished I saw this thread before I made my purchases. Also awaiting a response philwood in regard to my situation.

veganbikes

This is an old thread from 2016. However chainline isn't a big deal we keep saying it in many threads including more recent stuff that isn't 5 years old. Going really crazy will change things significantly enough but a few MM here and there not really.

I would in situations like that check with the frame manufacturer to see if they have any notes on that particular crank. Track frames can be a bit picky on certain cranks. They show it on the US website as with the Vision Track crank which seems a decent choice on a race bike. Phil Wood is cool but they aren't really mega useful here as they probably don't have that frame and crank to test.

IAmSam

Sorry for your problem, hope you get it sorted out soon - but I really just wanted to say AHA!

Without having been able to find it in my searching, I vaguely remembered and have mentioned gfk_velo's statement(?) claim(?) in this very thread about Campagnolo Record Pista cranks having a proprietary-not-exactly-ISO taper all over the interwebz and never hooked anybody into a discussion about or even found any other mention of it. I have ridden tens of thousands of miles on mine - on several non-Campag BBs. But still I wonder

veganbikes

It is a common thing, you wouldn't want someone using a different bottom bracket with your cranks. I really cannot imagine they would develop a completely new taper for this but probably just want you to use their stuff with scary warnings. They don't want to test the crank on some lesser garbage, they are Campagnolo, the finest component maker on the planet where everything is made by hand by Italian craftspeople who have been working there since birth. "Who is this Phil Wood he only started his company in 1971, a little bambino company. Tulio had danced circles around this baby." Sugino is probably the same way, we make the best stuff on the planet and why would you use anything less. Most companies are like that.

gfk_velo

The issue is absolutely not about any of that corporate ego that you refer to. It's a straight technical difference that anyone with a set of verniers can check and verify for themselves.

It's not a new taper - its a comparatively old, proprietary taper, developed back in the days when ISO had yet to define the ISO taper for use in bicycles and most makers had subtly different specs for their square taper interfaces. Campagnolo have never seen the need to update the tooling on the Pista BB and crank, as they advise that matching BB and cranks are used together. The Pista BB and crank have not changed since they were introduced in the early 1990s.

The use of the proprietory Campagnolo tapers used gave reverse compatibility to all BBs that Campagnolo had made before the introduction of C-Record and other square taper cranks of that generation.

The Pista taper has the same start square size as an ISO taper and the same 2 degree angle, however, there is a difference in the distance from the square face of the taper to the scallop where the taper changes from square section to the round section of the axle. As a result, the cranks migrate up the taper the same distance but the back of the crank, on an ISO taper, can foul the scallop (small manufacturing tolerance-related differences mean that it can sometimes *not* do so on first fitting but may do so on subsequent fittings).

If the back of the crank does foul the scallop, this puts a point load in the "corner" of the square taper on the crank, which eventually promotes cracking.

The form of the "corners" of the square taper is also slightly different to cope with back-lash loads on the taper but this is not the most significant problem.

gfk_velo

Not a claim. Fact. Just because the data isn't on the interweb, it doesn't mean it's not right.
There's far too much recycling of bad information on the internet - on the level of urban myth - that applies to all brands.

I checked this with great care and directly with the engineering team at Campagnolo in 2008/9. As I said in my original post on the subject, I am in practically daily contact with those guys and, as a result, have data that isn't always freely available - usually because it doesn't need to be, if only people would RTFM.

I verified what the engineering team had told me for myself, by observation and measurement, at that time. If I was going to go out to OEs, wholesalers and retailers, final users, I wasn't going to do it without checking..

Grab a set of verniers and some Campag BBs and do the measurements, or even, just put a Campag-ISO spec BB and a Campag Pista BB side by side and use a mark-1 eyeball. the differences are clear enough.

veganbikes

Ok fair dinkum. I haven't actually put a set of verniers to a taper in a long time and haven't had a Pista BB in a while. though there is a lot of stuff out there that is not proprietary and other manufacturers make products that will work but they don't support using those other products.

gfk_velo

There are some older non-ISO taper BBs from other makers that will work - but they're becoming very hard to find now.
IIRC OMAS Big Sliding, old Hope BBs (but not the current square taper ones), Royce (if you tell Cliff that you want Campag Pista tapers), Gipiemme and Ofmega BBs have all been compatible at various times in the past.
Likewise there are a few ISO BBs that are made with longer-than-spec tapers now ... the problem though, is that if they change their spec slightly for whatever reason, they don't necessarily advertise the fact which is why I adopt the "safe" approach.