Regulatori

I shouldn't really say "exotic" tubing since it's all steel...guess I mean more $$$ steel tubing.

Let's compare a group of standard no-frill 4130 double butted/tig welded frames (like a Bianchi Pista, Soma Rush, Pake Rum Rummer, and others at this price) to a steel frame of the same dimensions/geometry but with more higher end steel.

The more expensive frame could have Kasei 017/019 or something more exotic like Columbus Spirit or Reynolds 853 (or even 953). Let's say the frame builder is building a track bike for an average user...the tube thickness that typically leave the frame shop.

We're talking averages in both groups. For a 55cm frame with the same geo, are were talking a 1lb difference? 2lb?

I know some of you have weighed your bikes, bought a nicer frame, and then put all of the old parts on the new frame. How much weight loss did you see?

I'm by no means a weight weenie (I have no idea what my bike even weighs)....just more curious than anything.

TejanoTrackie 

There is nothing magical about different grades of steel, since they all have the same modulus of elasticity. So there isn't going to be a significant difference in weight. The big difference is between non-butted hiten steel and butted chromo steel.

johnnytheboy

the soma rush is tange prestige tubing FYI....

Regulatori

That makes sense.
I also know that the wall thickness can have an effect on frame weight but durability then comes into play.

The reason I brought this up is I was looking at Kalavinka's webpage and noticed their pricing upgrades for different type of steel.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Kaisei 019[/TD]
[TD]カイセイ　019
Cr-Mo, 0.8-0.5-0.8[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+0JPY [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]Kaisei 022[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]カイセイ　022
Cr-Mo, 0.9-0.6-0.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+0JPY[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]Kaisei 8630[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]カイセイ　8630
Ni-Cr-Mo, 0.8-0.5-0.8[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+17800JPY (+$150)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]Kaisei 8630R[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]カイセイ　8630R
Ni-Cr-Mo, 0.7-0.5-0.7[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+17800JPY(+$150)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]Kaisei 019E[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]カイセイ　019E quadruple butted
Ni-Cr-Mo, 0.8-0.5-0.4-0.7/0.8[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+3500JPY (+$30)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]ECO Storong Light[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]イーコ　ストロングライト、熱処理CrMO鋼
Heat treated Cr-Mo[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+11000JPY (+$93)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]Columbus Spirit Keirin[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"]コロンバス　スピリットケイリン[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]+24000JPY (+$200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 160"]etc.[/TD]
[TD="width: 400"][/TD]
[TD="width: 100"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I know the small numbers (ex.. .08 .05 .08) are talking about thickness of the steel.

I've also read that Kasei 019 refers to the frame weighing 1.9kg (4.2lbs) and Kasei 022 refers to it weighting 2.2kg (4.8lbs). Supposedly 019 tubing is thinner and not recommended for riding on the street since it dents easier.

Kasei even offers a 017 that supposedly weighs 1.7kg/3.75lbs

Kind of a cool chart... https://www.bikeschool.com/PDF_Files/KAISEIPoster.pdf

It also looks like 8630 and above has nickel added to the steel tubing.

I was just curious the benefits of Columbus Sprit tubing seeing that Kalanvinka charges extra for it. My guess is that might be more difficult to work with.

Then I also see steel bikes that are offered with Zona tubing or "Columbus Max" forks which again, I'm not sure what that advantage is either.

EnzoRWD

With that chart, you could estimate the difference if you knew the nominal tube OD. You've got wall thickness, so you could get the volume of steel per tube. Then do a % difference. It would give you a ballpark.

The weight difference in high-end steel is in the drawing process, and also the hardening. For example, 853 is air hardened so you can draw it thinner, and going to larger diameter tubing, create an equally strong frame with less metal.

TejanoTrackie 

The problem is that as the tubing gets thinner, it is more prone to denting and localised bucking, which affects durability in the real world. I have a Bianchi Pista Concept, which is very light due to the use of very thin tubing, but it takes only one wreck to destroy it. This is why Bianchi made the next generstion Super Pista with thicker heavier tubing, since its intended use was on the street. Also, frame stiffness is reduced when using thinner tubing unless the diameter is increased accordingly.

EnzoRWD

Absolutely. To the point that early Cannondale (maybe current CAAD?) have warnings to not clamp the frame in the stand. I have personally witnessed someone collapse a Cdale 2.8 top tube in a stand, one of the spring-loaded ones, not the threaded clamp style. At least the guy did it to his own bike, but he wasn't pleased.

I agree that thin-walled frame, whether steel or aluminum, can be risky on the street. If I recall right from my shop days, even steel like 853 can't be repaired as easily as "normal" steel frames. There is post-welding/brazing processing required.

nightfly

Seriously the Rush does have nicer tubing than some of those other bikes you are lumping it in with...

Having owned a Pista and a Rush, the Rush rides a lot better. Not sure if it is geometry or tubing but I'd choose the Rush any day of the week.

tashi

Weight difference will be pretty minimal. The difference is in ride characteristics, which are also determined by frame design.

Myself, I choose a frame that fits and is of acceptable quality, and put my money into wheels and tires. Expensive tires do more for ride quality than frame material, other things being equal.

3speedslow

+1 the Soma Rush really is one nice riding machine!

Live Wire 

Can't from your chart tell which version of Spirit they use. If it's the shaped tubeset with the matching stays/headtube, that would save at least a pound over the standard round 9/6/9 tubeset. It's not harder to work with, but it is a little more challenging to hold in a vise while you cut it.
The round version of Spirit is comparable to the Kaisei 8630R.

Regulatori

Awesome. That's the exact response I was looking for. Did you see the PDF file in my second post that shows the different Kaisei tubing?
It seems that tubing is seperated in two groups.
4130 = Cr-moly steel
8630 = Cr-moly + nickel

Again, part of asking all of these questions is the nerd in me. What does nickel do when added to steel? Does it make it lighter, add strength to thin walls, etc...etc..

Has anyone worked with Reynolds 953 or 853? What were your thoughts?

hairnet

Nickel makes the steel more ductile and corrosion resistant. Perhaps less likely for cracks to form around the welds. I'm guessing that means thinner wall tubing can be used there.

Regulatori

That makes sense. Thanks.
I play steel tip darts at a higher level and most of the expensive darts are always 90%-95% tungsten with mixture of nickel and other metals making up the extra.

Tungsten is awesome because you can make a narrow/thin dart that's actually heavy....for example, the darts I throw right now are 49mm x 6.4mm and around 22g.
I have 95% tungsten darts that are similar dimensions and 25g. People are shocked at how small the barrels are and what they actually weigh/feel in their hand.

But if you try to make 100% tungsten darts, they become too brittle and will crack/shatter.

rex615

You might find this thread interesting

Jarrett2

Basically, the stronger the steel, the lighter the builder can build the frame IF the builder chooses or is instructed to go that route.

I've had steel bikes made of no name 4130, Reynolds 520, Reynolds 853/725 and True Temper OX Platinum. And the main difference between them is their weight when you hang them on a scale.

I actually prefer the ride of my lightest frame (Gunnar Roadie/True Temper OX Platinum) to the others I have.

Here is a good reference on the majority of the steel tubesets out right now:

Strong Frames | Tubing Information

One day I want to have a Reynolds 953 frame build for me, but for now I'm happy with my Gunnar.

JohnDThompson 

For me, it's not weight so much as ride quality that makes the difference. Thick wall, low spec steel just feels dead compared to thin wall quality tubing.