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  1. #1
    dc pirate, 4evah. chimblysweep's Avatar
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    *scratching head* lots-o-wheelie questions

    OK, I know what hubs I want (Phil SLR's) and what rims I want (deep V's) but need a little help...
    I can lace a plain old, 32-hole, double-cross wheel, fine, but I want some advice on how to be, well, a little more interesting than that.

    If you were choosing 32 vs 36, which would you go with, and why?
    It's my feeling that 36 is a stiffer ride, puts more stress on the flanges, but holds up to more beatings. Am I crazy?

    Also, what spokes/nipples do y'all like? I've never cared before, so...

    And, lacing patterns. I've always felt like radial (in front) is too weak for the kind of curb-hopping I do, but I'm open minded. Ideas?

    PLEASE don't move this to the mechanics forum. I want to hear what folks who actually ride fixed, beat up their bikes like I do, and have experience on these wheels think, not some textbook answer...

  2. #2
    Bike Shop Girl Arsbars's Avatar
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    Double butted spokes, and brass 14g nipples

    36h is going to be beefier, BUT if you are doing street riding, a 32h triple cross will suit you fine.

    maybe 36h in the back if you are doing crazy things
    BikeShopGirl.com : Helping women find their way in cycling
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  3. #3
    Radio Bemba 00.0 EnLaCalle's Avatar
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    I got really excited because I thought this thread was going to be about busting wheelies. Ah, to face the cold, brutal truth.

  4. #4
    Frankly, Mr. Shankly absntr's Avatar
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    I have Phils fixed/fixed with triple lace on the back and a double lace on the front to Deep V's with nipples. Not sure what the spokes are as Marcus at Yojimbo's built them but I'm guessing they're DT Swiss since he uses them. They are 32 hole.

    Unless you're burly and heavier (which I believe you're not) 36 is overkill. 32 is a nice balance between 28 and 36 and gives you the bombproof-ness that you're looking for without all the added stress. I think the 32 vs 36 hole difference is neglible, again, unless you really beat your wheels or are a heavier, burlier rider.

    Radial is a no go. They always need truing.

    I had these wheels built at Marcus's recommendation so that I could ride them and not worry about them. They have been good to me thus far.

  5. #5
    Frankly, Mr. Shankly absntr's Avatar
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    P.S. I thought this was going to be about wheelies too...

  6. #6
    dc pirate, 4evah. chimblysweep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by absntr
    P.S. I thought this was going to be about wheelies too...
    sorry to disappoint. i went back to try to edit the subject line and the machine wouldn't let me.

  7. #7
    nerd hyphy jonb's Avatar
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    wow so radial front on a deep v is not a good idea?

  8. #8
    dc pirate, 4evah. chimblysweep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonb
    wow so radial front on a deep v is not a good idea?
    I think some people may say radial on any rim sacrifices strength for looks.

  9. #9
    LV 99 9999HP/9999MP Erich Zann's Avatar
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    I am building up a fixed wheelset myself right now using deep v rims and dura ace high flange 36 spoke hubs. I went with 36 hole because I feel that it would make for a sturdier wheel, this is also why I chose high flange hubs (also because they look cool). I suppose the reason why people have 32 rather than 36 spokes is to save on weight. A few extra grams is not as important to me as having a sturdy wheel. I suppose it might not make a difference if you are a light person. My friend is big (200 lb) and he would continually pop spokes on his 32 spoke wheel. He switched to 36 spokes and now does not have a problem. The simple fact is the more spokes there are the less stress there will be on each individual spoke, and the less likely one will break. This of course assumes the wheel was built properly and all the spokes were properly stressed.

    For spokes I am using DT Swiss double butted spokes with the brass nipples they came with. Since my deep vs are aluminum I did not want to use aluminum nipples because apparently the might form a bond together and be difficult to move. Tandems frequently have 40 spokes or more so that they will hold up better with the extra weight. I am not a fan of riding a radially laced wheel on the road, I had one taco on me with a minimal force applied. Radially laced wheels will buckle with only a little bit of lateral force, since the spokes are not leaning against each other. This is why I am using a 3 cross pattern rather than a 2 cross, because I feel it will hold up better to lateral forces with the extra cross support. I've never tried another lacing pattern, so I don't know what they are like.

    I have heard that many manufacturers do not recommend high flange track hubs on the street. Sheldon Brown has an article on his website with pics of a busted campy high flange from lateral forces applied. Campagnolo would not replace it because it deemed "street use" of the hubs to be "misuse" since they were designed for the track. This will not stop me from using high flange hubs on the street because it seemed like a freak occurance when the particular hb in question broke.

    I went to reload and bought a keirin spaced (110mm) rear dura ace double sided track hub because I plan on using it on a english "path racer" track frame with 110 spacing. I've encountered 3 different old english track bikes with this spacing: The Flying Scot (1950), Harry Quinn (196?), and Holdsworth "Zephyr" (1958) I'm sure there are others, too.

    Oh, and if you are planning on going brakeless, you should get the deep with unmachined sidewalls.

  10. #10
    Team Beer Cynikal's Avatar
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    I think it depends on the rider. The 3 front wheels I've built were radial and they are never out of true. Although I do not hop curbs and think of my riding style as more graceful than most so this might not work for all. My front rim on my fixie is a deep v laced to a old mtb hub from what I can tell it is bombproof for my riding style.
    I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC

  11. #11
    Senior Member filtersweep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynikal
    I think it depends on the rider.
    And the builder- I have four radial fronts and one that is 3-cross, and the radial hold up just fine. I think it is difficult to properly tension spokes when building your first set of wheels, and obviously tension is everything in the less forgiving world of radial spokes.

    The front wheels experience nowhere near the torque of the rear wheels.

    BTW- 3X wheels are actually more forgiving than radial spokes in that the spokes are longer (and can yield more), which actually makes them less laterally stiff, but offering a better ride. I know it sounds counter-intuitive...



    The thing is, back to the original poster, I wouldn't mess with 2X wheels- at least not in the rear. Some maniacs even use 4X in the rear on a track bike.

  12. #12
    Senior Member arcellus's Avatar
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    i think the main question has been answered fairly well, so, um... why don't we talk about wheelies now? or, does anybody take their bikes off sweet jumps?

  13. #13
    Senior Member arcellus's Avatar
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    i think the main question has been answered fairly well, so, um... why don't we talk about wheelies now? or, does anybody take their bikes off sweet jumps?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by filtersweep
    The thing is, back to the original poster, I wouldn't mess with 2X wheels- at least not in the rear. Some maniacs even use 4X in the rear on a track bike.
    Some manics also run radial non drive side on a rear track wheel. I saw some dude in boston with that setup.

  15. #15
    Senior Member mikorp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnLaCalle
    I got really excited because I thought this thread was going to be about busting wheelies. Ah, to face the cold, brutal truth.
    get your wheelie photos here! Hooligan Company Picnic!

  16. #16
    Sheldon Certified Jaminsky's Avatar
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    1. Definitely get your hands on some brass nipples, I promise this will save you a lot of frustration 2. If you are looking to build something different, look up the three leading three trailing pattern or find a site with exotic lacing patterns on it.

  17. #17
    Spoked to Death phidauex's Avatar
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    I'm building up a set of deep profile Vuelta rims with 3x on the back, and 1x on the front, both 32 hole. I thought about going aero spokes radial on the front, but its just not enough benefit, and I couldn't justify the extra cost just for the bling.

    And definately go with brass nipples. They are easier to work with, and won't weld themselves to the rim. Aluminum nipples either need diligent prepping, or something like a nipple washer to keep them from becoming one with the rim. A lot of trouble for a few grams.. I'm a fan of the Wheelsmith 14g straight spokes, but double butted is nice too.

    peace,
    sam

  18. #18
    Spoked to Death phidauex's Avatar
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    Additionally.. Three leading three trailing is a neat way to build wheels! No benefit persay, but I'm convinced that they are almost as strong as regular 3x, having built a few sets this way. The wheels on my tall bike are built up that way, and they take a LOT of stress, and do just fine. Of course they have beefy 14g spokes, and are 36 hole on steel rims.

    peace,
    sam

  19. #19
    All Things Go s2sxiii's Avatar
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    yeah, i recently built my first set of wheels myself (black phils to black open pros, dt 14g) and i made the mistake of using alternating black and green alloy nips on the front -- got almost through the build and the green nips started to round. Suckfest. So soon enough all the nipples will be switched to black brass. /hassle. Should have listened to my boss.

    also, radial is really easy, part of the reason some lazier wheelbuilders like it. and there's a rumor, perpetrated by my cycling mentor, that 2cross is stronger than 3 cross in non disc applications. I like my 3 cross though. Now if i could just talk him into tieing and soldering them ...
    NO! It is the FARGATE! It is not some other kind of gate from a movie or TV show that I've never seen! Notice that it has a wheelchair and a pink mohawk? We're not getting sued!

  20. #20
    PS NOT STOLEN Mouton's Avatar
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    To mention Jobst brandt again:

    He argues that tying and soldering doesnt have any effect on the wheel strength at all, and also says that radial front is fine because there is hardly any torque there at all (The ground pushing on the tire causing the wheel to turn.)

  21. #21
    Senior Member
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    A friend of mine messenger'd on a set of 28-spoke Phils/CXP-33s 2x rear and 1x front. He rode hard (but smart I guess) and they were rock solid. He only weighs about 140 though. That just goes to show that you can have some durability without using a super beefy wheel. I also have (surprisingly) had no problems with the crappy wheels that came on this Mercier that I've been riding this year. 32-spoke 3x front and rear. If you aren't that big I think 32-spoke 3x rear/whatever pattern front is probably more than enough. If you weight 250 or something than maybe go a little beefier.

  22. #22
    All Things Go s2sxiii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouton
    To mention Jobst brandt again:

    He argues that tying and soldering doesnt have any effect on the wheel strength at all,
    yeah, but it looks trick as hell.
    NO! It is the FARGATE! It is not some other kind of gate from a movie or TV show that I've never seen! Notice that it has a wheelchair and a pink mohawk? We're not getting sued!

  23. #23
    likes avocadoes
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    as for 36 v 32 spoke wheels and extra stress on the flanges, I wouldn't worry too much about breaking flanges on your phils, 36, 40, 44 or even 48 spokes.

  24. #24
    Senior Member filtersweep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonFixed
    Some manics also run radial non drive side on a rear track wheel. I saw some dude in boston with that setup.
    My Ksyriums are set up radial on drive side, if I recall- but alas, it is on a road bike.

  25. #25
    dc pirate, 4evah. chimblysweep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by filtersweep
    My Ksyriums are set up radial on drive side, if I recall- but alas, it is on a road bike.
    yeah, i have that wheelset on my roadie too. radial in front. it's been fine, but i don't really beat up my road bike.

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