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Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

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Old 06-16-05, 01:05 AM   #1
boycey
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Level Components Track Hub

Does anybody use one yet? I like the look of them, but would welcome some feedback before I commit myself.
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Old 06-16-05, 02:02 AM   #2
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Someone forgot to equip with the "search" spell before this quest. Now we all shall suffer.
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Old 06-16-05, 05:52 AM   #3
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English? Code? Can't work that one out.
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Old 06-16-05, 07:35 AM   #4
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Use the search.
Level hubs have been discussed at length and reviewed several times. It appears those that have used them rate them highly but others are concerned about the proprietary cog design.
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Old 06-16-05, 09:29 AM   #5
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Yes, he just means that if you do some searches, you'll find many multipage discussions about them. In short, no one seems to question the quality of the hubs, but some are concerned about locking themselves into a proprietary cog design. Everyone who has them seems to enjoy them quite a bit.

peace,
sam
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Old 06-16-05, 10:30 AM   #6
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I am leaning away from them. They seem good, the information provided seems good. But I just can't make that jump.. 250 jump... for a hub that may become it's own thing ala the CHUB HUB.
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Old 06-16-05, 10:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Karsten
I am leaning away from them. They seem good, the information provided seems good. But I just can't make that jump.. 250 jump... for a hub that may become it's own thing ala the CHUB HUB.
Yeah, I'm with the angry guy on this one. Nobody's gonna stop making traditional cogs and lockrings anytime soon, but you never know if the new thing's going to catch on or just disappear.

Call me boring.
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Old 06-16-05, 10:56 AM   #8
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And now this is officially a new thread about the level hubs. Look what you've done!!

Actually, just to add some fuel to the fire, I've always felt that using threads to affix something that has to withstand torque loading was always a silly choice, that was probably made early on because of ease and cost of manufacturing, not an actual performance benefit.

You can make stronger, lighterweight systems that use splines of some sort that the cog can float on, which is exactly the direction that motorcycle disc brakes went many years ago, with full floating rotors. Very lightweight, and incredibly strong.

I'm not a fan of constantly reinventing the wheel, but at the same time, you can't tie yourself too hard to the past. Under the right set of circumstances, I could see a few manufacturers getting together and agreeing on a new cog spec. Imagine being able to change cogs with nothing more than an allen wrench, no need for two big long tools just to change a cog, the wrench on your multitool would do the job. Stripped cogs would be a thing of the past. You'd destroy the rim before ripping the cog off its splines.

Now, I don't know if Level can generate the support from the industry required to change this design from 'obscure and proprietary' to 'readily available and standardized', but if they can, I'd support that change.

peace,
sam
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Old 06-16-05, 11:04 AM   #9
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[QUOTE=jim-bob]Yeah, I'm with the angry guy on this one. [QUOTE]


Who are you calling angry?
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Old 06-16-05, 11:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phidauex
And now this is officially a new thread about the level hubs. Look what you've done!!

Actually, just to add some fuel to the fire, I've always felt that using threads to affix something that has to withstand torque loading was always a silly choice, that was probably made early on because of ease and cost of manufacturing, not an actual performance benefit.

You can make stronger, lighterweight systems that use splines of some sort that the cog can float on, which is exactly the direction that motorcycle disc brakes went many years ago, with full floating rotors. Very lightweight, and incredibly strong.

I'm not a fan of constantly reinventing the wheel, but at the same time, you can't tie yourself too hard to the past. Under the right set of circumstances, I could see a few manufacturers getting together and agreeing on a new cog spec. Imagine being able to change cogs with nothing more than an allen wrench, no need for two big long tools just to change a cog, the wrench on your multitool would do the job. Stripped cogs would be a thing of the past. You'd destroy the rim before ripping the cog off its splines.

Now, I don't know if Level can generate the support from the industry required to change this design from 'obscure and proprietary' to 'readily available and standardized', but if they can, I'd support that change.

peace,
sam
Good Post Sam. William, you really should search on the other threads about the Level Hubs. There is no chance that Level would become anything like CHUB HUBS. The Chub Hubs had nothing unique about them, except for their unique look, and their unique ability to fail during rides.

The Level Hubs are severely overbuilt, and although it is a niche right now, it is the smartest advance in hubs I've seen since pulling the training wheels off my bike. Before selling these in Canada, I rode a set for months and still do. The ride has been smooth with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

The hubs are beefy looking (perhaps the reason for the Chub Hub comparison) but I believe that these guys are here to stay.

The challenege that Level has right now, is to compete in the market segment that they are currently placed, based on their pricing. They are head-on competing with Phil, Campy and DA hubs.

Right now, nobody can say whether Level is BETTER or worse than any of these hubs. From what I have seen, read, and tested they are as good or better with respect to the design, durability and finish of the hubs. LONG TERM, we'll have to see how these hubs are in 2, 3 or 5 years...

I do love the Level Cog design, and if you ever get the chance to see one up close, you'll really see what a great design it is, and how amazing their cogs are...They are beefy, stainless and never have a thread to worry about...I personally love them (if you haven't guessed by now).

We've been selling them like crazy (in fact we've been sold out for weeks) and hopefully we'll get some more in later this summer.
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Old 06-16-05, 11:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim-bob
Yeah, I'm with the angry guy on this one. Nobody's gonna stop making traditional cogs and lockrings anytime soon, but you never know if the new thing's going to catch on or just disappear.

Call me boring.
You're boring. Go eat some pie.

Lots of people are so locked into a gear choice that they choose it as their nick. I like to change ratios often, to suit my day-to-day strength level. Being a racer that can vary quite a bit depending on if I raced the day before, if I want to put a governor on my pace do to an impending race or whatever. If this sounds like something you'd like to be able to do, pull the trigger on the Levels. Quite a nice looking hub; smooth, resistant to torque and such. Pretty. Innovative.

Many here are not old enough to remember the pre-STI days. All the pros persisted for several years with using down-tube shift levers. Finally they started losing races to people with STI, BECAUSE OF it. That forced the switch.

The ability to easily change ratios; and the resistance to stripping makes it worth choosing over the other hubs out there. The quality is certainly on par. As far as Scott's ability to make Level a viable buisness in the years to come, all we can do is support him and intend for these hubs to catch on. I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.
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Old 06-16-05, 11:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flythebike
You're boring. Go eat some pie.

Lots of people are so locked into a gear choice that they choose it as their nick. I like to change ratios often, to suit my day-to-day strength level. Being a racer that can vary quite a bit depending on if I raced the day before, if I want to put a governor on my pace do to an impending race or whatever. If this sounds like something you'd like to be able to do, pull the trigger on the Levels. Quite a nice looking hub; smooth, resistant to torque and such. Pretty. Innovative.

Many here are not old enough to remember the pre-STI days. All the pros persisted for several years with using down-tube shift levers. Finally they started losing races to people with STI, BECAUSE OF it. That forced the switch.

The ability to easily change ratios; and the resistance to stripping makes it worth choosing over the other hubs out there. The quality is certainly on par. As far as Scott's ability to make Level a viable buisness in the years to come, all we can do is support him and intend for these hubs to catch on. I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.
I get what you're saying. The Level does look like a better design, granted, but I'm more afraid that support for it will dry up. If it's still out there in four or five years when I need a new hub, I just might pick one up, but until then I'm happy with my good ol' threaded flip-flop hub. I don't change gearing all that much, and when I do I'm pretty alright with the three-tooth difference between sides.

Can I still have some pie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Karsten
Who are you calling angry?
You, snuggles.
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Old 06-16-05, 12:23 PM   #13
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You, snuggles.
Oh. I'm not angry. Just bitterly mis understood.
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Old 06-16-05, 12:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikeophile
Good Post Sam. William, you really should search on the other threads about the Level Hubs. There is no chance that Level would become anything like CHUB HUBS. The Chub Hubs had nothing unique about them, except for their unique look, and their unique ability to fail during rides.
The Level Hubs are severely overbuilt, and although it is a niche right now, it is the smartest advance in hubs I've seen since pulling the training wheels off my bike. Before selling these in Canada, I rode a set for months and still do. .
You sound just like the Chub hub hype. Seriously.


Quote:
but I believe that these guys are here to stay.The challenege that Level has right now, is to compete in the market segment that they are currently placed, based on their pricing. They are head-on competing with Phil, Campy and DA hubs..
Your belief, everyone else's "their cool" factor, the (honestly) well thought out design: Doesn't mean crap to me when it's all said and done. I took the advice of many about a suzue basic hub. That cost me more time and agravation than I'm willing to spend. Money aside.


Quote:
Right now, nobody can say whether Level is BETTER or worse than any of these hubs..
Anyone can. The other upper level hubs have what Level doesn't have yet: A reputation of quality. Will Level have this in the future? Perhaps. But I'd rather not have to gamble my nickel. Dig it?

Quote:
LONG TERM, we'll have to see how these hubs are in 2, 3 or 5 years....
Yes. Long Term. And if they hold, I'll get one. In the CURRENT TERM, I'll get a Paul or a Phil. Likely a Paul.



Quote:
I do love the Level Cog design, and if you ever get the chance to see one up close, you'll really see what a great design it is, and how amazing their cogs are....
I kind of have that trouble. Not many people sell them. Which further limits my ability to put faith in them. I see the others nearly every day. And they work.



Quote:
They are beefy, stainless and never have a thread to worry about...I personally love them (if you haven't guessed by now)..
Well, you sell them, so I'd say you have a vested interest.

I've searched, asked and heard a lot. There's just not enough to give me that comfort factor that's required for a leap of faith like this. I'm not posting or shooting from the hip, I've done the time.
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Old 06-16-05, 12:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flythebike
I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. .
I agree and understand. Completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flythebike
I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.
This "attack the buyer on the personal level" is BS. "live in the past" because people choose not to buy something that is AT THIS TIME NOT PROVEN OVER THE TEST OF TIME... C'mon. You're smarter than that, right?

Tell me, what makes the Level hub BETTER than a Phil or Paul with a properly installed lock ring?
At this point, it's only different. And not proven yet.
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Old 06-16-05, 12:44 PM   #16
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Will- get the Phil's. The Pauls haven't been around all that long and if you search there's been threads about the big nut cracking. I was looking at Paul's but like you said, why risk it? Phil's baby.
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Old 06-16-05, 12:46 PM   #17
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Paul "troubles":

Paul hubs vs Phil Woods.
paul hub dilemma update
Paul Hubs and torque values
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Old 06-16-05, 12:54 PM   #18
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Ahh Abnstr. Once again you light up areas that I was un aware of. I owe you for things I can't put paper value to. You rock man. Thanks.
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Old 06-16-05, 01:06 PM   #19
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No worries WK. Since I know you've been wanting to build these wheels and the entire bike forever and that every penny needs to go a long way, I thought I'd point out potential issues with the Paul.s I have no doubt that they're a good product but again, if money is tight, go with something pretty bombproof and reputable.
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Old 06-16-05, 01:18 PM   #20
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Well, actually. Money was just about to loosen up a little.

Then, braces for the little one.

So, back to what ever I don't spend on gass.

Not that I'm poor, I just don't want to rack up any CC debt.
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Old 06-16-05, 01:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Karsten
I've searched, asked and heard a lot. There's just not enough to give me that comfort factor that's required for a leap of faith like this. I'm not posting or shooting from the hip, I've done the time.
Fair enough. There is a reason that Phil Wood hubs have the reputation for such high quality, because they are. Hopefully some LBS start carrying them so people can get a fair look/shot at these.

Perhaps Level will get a reputation after some years of being in the market. I agree that it is a lot of money to put your faith into, when you have other tried and true options.

For us, as a business we do support smaller companies like ourselves and were lucky enough to stumble onto level early last year. We took a chance and have had great success with them (riding and selling).

As for vested interest, please don't think that I support Level on this thread simply because we sell them. We sell Campy Hubs, Phil Hubs, IRO Hubs, and Miche Hubs as well.

I just think that Level needs some people who have used them to speak up for them. Afterall, how did Phil Woods get the reputation. Someone had to buy the first one. We've sold a bunch of them, as have the folks at HubJub in the UK so I am sure other folks should be piping in eventually (good or bad).

Cheers
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Old 06-16-05, 01:20 PM   #22
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I hear ya - still, I'd want the best (tried and true) hubs I could get for that money.
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Old 06-16-05, 01:23 PM   #23
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Agreed.
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Old 06-16-05, 01:26 PM   #24
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I will say that I do like what Level is doing and would love to see them be around in five years and maybe the whole cog spec thing will change. Time will tell.
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Old 06-16-05, 01:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikeophile
For us, as a business we do support smaller companies like ourselves and were lucky enough to stumble onto level early last year. We took a chance and have had great success with them (riding and selling).

I just think that Level needs some people who have used them to speak up for them. Afterall, how did Phil Woods get the reputation. Someone had to buy the first one. We've sold a bunch of them, as have the folks at HubJub in the UK so I am sure other folks should be piping in eventually (good or bad).

Cheers
Rob
Rob,

That was an intelligent and well laid out response. I understand, and to an extent, support your respect for the Level Hub. I do hope that Level succeeds, and that the idea takes off. It's always cool for the "little guy" to come in and upset the status quo. And I actually subscribe to that ideal. What's ironic, is that I can't get past the very thing I preach against.. getting out on a limb and trying new things. Taking a risk is never really a bad thing. Yet here I am. Holding on to the status quo. Call me Mr. Duality.
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