Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-08-05, 04:48 PM   #1
weed eater
Patrick Barber
Thread Starter
 
weed eater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
First-time wheelbuilding questions

OK, the hubs are here, the spokes and rims are ordered, and just in time, my current hub is stripped and out of commission. Wheelbuilding time is upon me.

so, three questions

-- do I need that spoke prep stuff or can I just use 3-in-1 oil/Tri-flon?

-- do I need a dish stick? Or can I just enjoy saying "dish stick" for the heck of it, and save my money?

-- is the bike sufficient as a truing stand?

Dish stick.

Thanks

--patrick
__________________
the day job. | the urban homestead.
weed eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 04:51 PM   #2
poppalurch
Senior Member
 
poppalurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Fransicko
Bikes:
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
yes, yes and no
poppalurch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 05:05 PM   #3
bostontrevor
Retrogrouch in Training
 
bostontrevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Bikes:
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes no yes

You're building a dishless wheel. If you're really worried, rest the wheel on the floor next to the wall with the axle to the floor (like a toy top). Press down on the rim opposite the wall so the side adjacent to the wall rises up. Mark where it reaches.

Now flip it over and repeat the process. If the rim is properly centered, it'll reach the same height both times.

As for truing, use an old spoke bent in an L shape (with a U bend at the very tip to keep from scratching the rim) strapped to the stays or fork arms. This can be rotated in and out and raised up or down. Use two and do lateral and radial truing simultaneously.

Who knows, you might be able to get away w/o spoke prep. I've never tried, but I've been told that my spokes will back out if I don't use it. Linseed oil is supposed to be suitable, but you have to let it set for a day or two.
bostontrevor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 05:21 PM   #4
legalize_it
legalize bikes
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: bucks county, PA
Bikes: too damn many
Posts: 1,250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
for lubrication i like to use philwood tenacious oil. i lay the spokes flat and coat the threads, then roll them around together and wipe off the excess. also a drop in each spoke nipple. once the wheel is laced and initially tensioned, i put a drop of triflow in every nipple/rim junction after. if your wheels are tensioned, stress relieved, and unwound correctly then the spokes will never back out.
legalize_it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 05:26 PM   #5
dolface
Iguana Subsystem
 
dolface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: san francisco
Bikes:
Posts: 4,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
you don't NEED a dish stick (dish stick!) or a truing stand, but they will make things much easier, especially if you drink beer while you're building the wheels (recommended).
dolface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 05:31 PM   #6
jim-bob
hateful little monkey
 
jim-bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: oakland, ca
Bikes:
Posts: 5,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolface
you don't NEED a dish stick (dish stick!) or a truing stand, but they will make things much easier, especially if you drink beer while you're building the wheels (recommended).
recommended? essential! i don't think i've ever built a wheel without my trusty sierra nevada.

it's like a guy i used to work with who did all his best welding with a cigarette in one hand.
jim-bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 05:48 PM   #7
weed eater
Patrick Barber
Thread Starter
 
weed eater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Damn, I forgot to ask about beer. Fortunately I have that already.
__________________
the day job. | the urban homestead.
weed eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 05:55 PM   #8
filtersweep
Senior Member
 
filtersweep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 2,615
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
no, no, yes

I really don't think spoke prep is necessary- and for some people, it seems to cause more trouble than it fixes.

Dish isn't much of an issue with fixed, since both wheels should be centered on the hubs. You can just flip them to check... and you can true the wheel on your bike.

Did you read the gospel?

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It is free!
filtersweep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 06:02 PM   #9
weed eater
Patrick Barber
Thread Starter
 
weed eater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtersweep

Did you read the gospel?

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

It is free!
yep I have that whole section all printed out. Plus the Lennard zinn book, also very handy.
__________________
the day job. | the urban homestead.
weed eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 06:07 PM   #10
poppalurch
Senior Member
 
poppalurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Fransicko
Bikes:
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostontrevor
As for truing, use an old spoke bent in an L shape (with a U bend at the very tip to keep from scratching the rim) strapped to the stays or fork arms. This can be rotated in and out and raised up or down. Use two and do lateral and radial truing simultaneously
That's rad
poppalurch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 10:04 PM   #11
tlupfer
...
 
tlupfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Bikes:
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
* spoke prep was invented because people started building radial, low spoke, and otherwise goofy wheels. jobst brandt says so.
* I use marine grease on the threads. makes it easy to put together, easy to take apart, and easy to get the wheel up to proper tension.
* A truing stand is a wise investment. People will tell you how you can build a wheel using a vice, a lawn chair, and a stick of butter, but you'll be quite a lot happier with a stand and your wheel will show it. The cheap ones work fine. The minoura junior is something like $40.

cheers,
tim
tlupfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 11:11 PM   #12
bostontrevor
Retrogrouch in Training
 
bostontrevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Bikes:
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How many wheels ya gonna build? A truing stand won't enable you to make a better wheel, it'll allow you to make the same wheel faster. I've built something like five wheels using that technique very happily. It's not a ton, but they've all come out nice and true and stayed that way (except when hit by cars or wedged in construction sites).

In my opinion, for what you'd pay for a truing stand, I'd get a tensiometer. There's really no other way to quantify tension (don't tell me about tension-by-tone because Jobst has a good explanation about how that doesn't really fly if you don't have an already built wheel with spokes for comparison).
bostontrevor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-05, 11:37 PM   #13
bkrownd
kipuka explorer
 
bkrownd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hilo Town, East Hawai'i
Bikes: 1994 Trek 820, 2004 Fuji Absolute, 2005 Jamis Nova, 1977 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36
Posts: 3,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Girls just love my dish stick.
__________________
--
-=- '05 Jamis Nova -=- '04 Fuji Absolute -=- '94 Trek 820 -=- '77 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36 -=-
Friends don't let friends use brifters.
bkrownd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 12:42 AM   #14
53-11_alltheway
"Great One"
 
53-11_alltheway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Might as well be underwater because I make less drag than a torpedoE (no aero bars here though)
Bikes:
Posts: 4,463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostontrevor
In my opinion, for what you'd pay for a truing stand, I'd get a tensiometer. There's really no other way to quantify tension (don't tell me about tension-by-tone because Jobst has a good explanation about how that doesn't really fly if you don't have an already built wheel with spokes for comparison).
Cool thing about a tensiometer is there is no guessing involved and you can follow tensions after the initial build to see how good your stress relief process was.

"the bicycle wheel" by Jobst Brandt is an awesome book. Definitely Worth the $10 pick-up on Ebay.
53-11_alltheway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 01:55 AM   #15
peripatetic
Senior Member
 
peripatetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Bikes: All 70s and 80s, only steel.
Posts: 2,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


<drunk> thanks. you guys have inspired me. I'm going to build one. I'm stick of this damn stuck seatpost.
</drunk>

peripatetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 06:27 AM   #16
filtersweep
Senior Member
 
filtersweep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 2,615
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostontrevor
How many wheels ya gonna build? A truing stand won't enable you to make a better wheel, it'll allow you to make the same wheel faster. I've built something like five wheels using that technique very happily.
I agree, however, a truing stand can be used for truing all wheels whenever they need it. Much of wheelbuilding take place off the stand.
filtersweep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 09:05 AM   #17
phidauex
Spoked to Death
 
phidauex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes: Salsa La Cruz w/ Alfine Internal 8-speed, Scattante Ultegra roadie, Maserati fixie conversion
Posts: 1,334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm gonna be the wild one here and answer, no, no, no. For dishless wheels you don't need no dish stick, you don't need spoke prep on regular wheels with brass nipples (if your spokes are backing out its because they are going slack, which means you messed up the wheel build), and you can true wheels just fine on the bike.

Now, a truing stand really does make it a lot quicker. I use my friend's truing stand occasionally, and it is a treat. But if you don't have the extra cash lying around, don't worry, you don't REALLY need it. My last wheelbuild was made clean (no spoke prep), dishless, and was trued in a 24" mountain bike fork (which fits a tireless 700c wheel perfectly, with tight clearance for easy truing). Its dead true, and I'm pretty damn pleased with it.

peace,
sam
phidauex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 02:45 PM   #18
r-dub
likes avocadoes
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: oakland, ca
Bikes: heh, like that info would fit here...
Posts: 1,125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
my .02:
linseed oil is the only lube you need (well, you don't even really need that) in wheelbuilding. It will make it a lot easier and quieter to get your spokes up to tension, and for the rest of your life you will fondly remember your first build every time you smell it.

I've never really been a fan of the dish stick...but I've got my truing stand set up so as to pretty much make the stick redunant and slow.

My first several builds were w/o stand, my last several were with stand. Can't say there's a HUGE difference, but it is faster with the stand, and faster means less likely to get annoyed and give up before it's perfect.

I find alcohol to make me more irritable when I'm trying to work on small, intricate things with narrow tolerances. Other relaxing inebriating substances are recommended for wheelbuilding as far as I'm concerned.
r-dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 04:10 PM   #19
weed eater
Patrick Barber
Thread Starter
 
weed eater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by r-dub
my .02:
linseed oil is the only lube you need (well, you don't even really need that) in wheelbuilding. It will make it a lot easier and quieter to get your spokes up to tension, and for the rest of your life you will fondly remember your first build every time you smell it.
actually, the smell of linseed oil will remind me of building my first chicken coop, also a fond memory. And we've still got nearly a gallon of the stuff.

However, up near the top of this thread Bostontrevor says he heard you have to "let linseed set for a day or two"--could either of you (Bt or r-d) expand on this? Let the wheel set after building? or let the linseed oil aerate for a day? I've got the raw stuff, so I hope that will work. I'm pleased I won't have to buy another specialty lubricant.

I think I will buy a truing stand. It seems like a good tool, and I have become the household wrench, so there are lots of wheels to be trued. And potentially a lot to be built. I'm also very fond of using good tools, and time, for better or worse, is of the essence lately, so the speed factor is an important one.

It does sound like a dish stick is completely unnecessary. The $40 truing stand I am looking at claims it can do the dishing as well, in any case.

As for the beer/intoxicants, wheelbuilding will likely be of an evening, accompanied by a proprietary blend of nettles, chamomile, red clover, oatstraw, and various and sundry other things, steeped in boiled water for 20 minutes. A hot cup of this infusion warms the body and clears the mind. Just the ticket.

Thanks, everyone, for all your advice.
__________________
the day job. | the urban homestead.
weed eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 04:12 PM   #20
weed eater
Patrick Barber
Thread Starter
 
weed eater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by peripatetic


<drunk> thanks. you guys have inspired me. I'm going to build one. I'm stick of this damn stuck seatpost.
</drunk>

peri, forgive me if this has already been suggested, but have you tried liquid wrench on that seatpost? it's horrible, toxic stuff, but it does work a treat.
__________________
the day job. | the urban homestead.
weed eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 04:18 PM   #21
bostontrevor
Retrogrouch in Training
 
bostontrevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Bikes:
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Linseed lubricates and then dries to a more viscous consistency, acting more as a thread locker. So just lube with linseed, build, and let the wheel set for a bit. Though if Jobst is to be believed (and he generally is), it's completely unnecessary.

Me, I prefer to be straight sober when wrenching, particularly when building wheels. Especially on your first wheel, you need to be able to stay on top of the details, be able to think a little critically if things don't seem to be going right, etc. Sounds like you have the right idea.
bostontrevor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 05:37 PM   #22
tlupfer
...
 
tlupfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Bikes:
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostontrevor
How many wheels ya gonna build? A truing stand won't enable you to make a better wheel, it'll allow you to make the same wheel faster. I've built something like five wheels using that technique very happily. It's not a ton, but they've all come out nice and true and stayed that way (except when hit by cars or wedged in construction sites).

In my opinion, for what you'd pay for a truing stand, I'd get a tensiometer. There's really no other way to quantify tension (don't tell me about tension-by-tone because Jobst has a good explanation about how that doesn't really fly if you don't have an already built wheel with spokes for comparison).
A stand will produce a better wheel, that is not to suggest that that margin is a particularly large one and that your wheels aren't subjectively "true", but simply that a more precise tool will allow for a more precisely constructed wheel.
tlupfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 05:49 PM   #23
dolface
Iguana Subsystem
 
dolface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: san francisco
Bikes:
Posts: 4,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostontrevor
Linseed lubricates and then dries to a more viscous consistency, acting more as a thread locker. So just lube with linseed, build, and let the wheel set for a bit. Though if Jobst is to be believed (and he generally is), it's completely unnecessary.
i thought you needed to use boiled linseed oil, will the raw stuff work too?
dolface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 06:06 PM   #24
steaktaco
bannned
 
steaktaco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: philadelphia
Bikes: black bike, white bike, blue bike, yellow bike, silver bike
Posts: 2,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hey as long as we're at it where do you guys go to get spokes? I'ma gonna try and build me some of them wheels. also can't find cheap 135mm hubs. where to go, where to go?
__________________
steaktaco.com <-- poohoopsies.

steaktaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-05, 06:38 PM   #25
bostontrevor
Retrogrouch in Training
 
bostontrevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Bikes:
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlupfer
A stand will produce a better wheel, that is not to suggest that that margin is a particularly large one and that your wheels aren't subjectively "true", but simply that a more precise tool will allow for a more precisely constructed wheel.
This is simply not true. I can rotate my ghetto feelers in arbitrarily close and get my wheel as dead true as any stand. It may not be as convenient to do so, but my results say it's absolutely possible. I usually shoot for something like less than 0.5mm out-of-true, but could do better if I really wanted to.

There's nothing more precise about a proper truing stand, it's just faster to setup and will hold calibration a little better.

As for linseed oil, I really don't know. I'm just repeating what I've heard tell. Maybe you do need to boil it, I don't know. To answer another question, I always buy my spokes (and rims) at my LBS where they hook me up with some complimentary spoke prep. DT or Phil, can't complain.
bostontrevor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:26 AM.