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  1. #1
    Senior Member peripatetic's Avatar
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    'k 'em all, NYC bike shops, rant II




    Day after riding in my first Critical Mass, I'm anxious and excited to finish converting my girlfriend's 12-speed Zebra over to a ss, esp. now that I finally have the freewheel off. I managed to score a few rear axle spacers at bikeworks yesterday, after picking up my Raleigh conversion (had to get new cranks), but they didn't have a full variety. I woke up this morning and began measuring the chainline lengths, and managed to get the driveside spacing and thus the chainline right, but then I ran out of spacers.

    I had to go see a friend's band play at the East River Park, so afterwards, I decided to head over to Trackstar. Went in with my girlfriend and asked the guy for spacers. First he looks at me like 'what the hell are you talking about,' and says basically the same thing, "explain more." So I do, and then he looks at me, kind of shakes his head and says, "well, we have spacers, but you need to bring in the hub and wheel." Which meant he didn't know what I was talking about, because if he did, he'd realize that I need to put the spacers to get the axle nuts to the dropouts, which I had explained. In other words, I'd have to bring in the disassembled bike, which I'm not about to do, just to get the right damn spacers. Anyway, after this, he just kind of shrugged and walked away, while the little Japanese woman behind the counter just stared at me like I was an idiot. My girlfriend and I walked out, and cognizant of my previous post about 'baditude in NYC bike shops,' she says to me, "wow, the bike shops here really do have a lot of attitude." Then she says, "why was he so mean?" "Don't know," I replied. A few more steps down the sidewalk and I turned around, decided to go in and give it another try. Went in, waited for dude to finish with his other customer, then when the guy left, I said, "I guess I didn't explain very well, but I just need some spacers--" "Yeah, um, you just need to bring the wheel in." "So you won't just sell me some spacers?" "No."

    WTF?!Before anyone out there starts going on about me wanting free advice or taking away any business from these dudes, be clear on this: I just wanted to buy some damn axle spacers. Dude told me they had them, but he wouldn't sell them to me. That's it.

    I walked out totally bewildered. Went over to Bicycle Habitat, and the guy there explained to me that I probably wouldn't be able to find smaller spacers in the city because no one keeps track of them. He referred me to Harris Cyclery or Nashbar. I purchased a roll of rim tape and gave the dollar change to the guy just for not copping attitude.

    Meantime, I've come up with one explanation for dude-at-trackstar's behavior--he didn't feel like going and scrounging around for some spacers. If that was it, fine, all he has to say is, "I don't feel like going and scrounging around for some. There's no way I'm going to find them."

    Meantime, Bikeworks seems okay for this week.

    Anyone here work in a NYC bike shop, I have one thing to say: "SCREW YOU."

    Oh, and before anyone wants to tell me to take my business elsewhere, thanks, I plan to, and when I find the a$$hole in that shop, I'll move on again.


  2. #2
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    i don't understand why you'd need additional spacers to make it work, 126mm spacing with the spacers on the drive side, is still going to be 126mm spacing with the spacers on the non-drive side, and you should be able to get a reasonable chainline our of that. if you need anything at all it'll most likely be an extra 5mm spacer for the non-drive side, and a 5mm locknut (versus a 10mm locknut if that's what you have already) for the drive side. you'll also have to re-dish the wheel to make sure you get the rim centered between the stays.

    dude at trackstar probably wanted to see the wheel so he could tell you the same thing and save you some money and frustration when you realised that you bought spacers when you didn't need to. that doesn't really excuse his attitude, and it doesn't really warrant a big "screw you" to anyone who works in a shop in NYC, or any city for that matter. dealing with clueless buttfaces all day makes anyone a tad apoplectic. having to go scrounge around for a $.50 part for 5 minutes is not an effective use of anyone's time. or maybe he just doesn't know what an axle spacer is, and reacted with anger out of his own ignorance.

    FYI, you don't need to bring the whole disassembled bike if all he wanted to look at was the wheel, and it's pretty easy to strap a wheel to your backpack and get to a bike shop.

  3. #3
    Senior Member peripatetic's Avatar
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    I'm just following Deakins' instructions on chainline on sheldon brown's website. According to him, and according to what I see from looking, the large spacer is just not going to work with the ss cones

    Bringing the wheel in is not going to help him see if my chainline is correct or not. Only looking at the chainring and cog lined up is going to tell him that. It took me all of about 30 seconds to get the spacing right this morning, but now I don't have enough small spacers to fit the non-drive side nut against the dropout.

    Besides, I was looking for a 5mm, 4mm, or any fewer mm spacer. Any variety of smaller ones.

    And really, if the guy wanted to help or not, does that matter? I ask, "So you won't sell me a couple of spacers?" and he responds, "No." And how is he going to save me any money over selling me a few 25- or 50-cent spacers? Come on.

    Look, the guy didn't want to help me or sell me anything, for who knows what reason.

    I asked my girlfriend when we left if I gave any kind of bad vibe off, and she said no. Her comment to me came before I said anything after we left the shop.

    At this point, I don't care if anyone deserves a screw you or not, because as far as I'm concerned, every time I walk into a bike shop, I'm fairly certain I have about a 50/50 chance of getting one from whomever I deal with. I've worked in service jobs, I know how crappy dealing with customers can be, and I'm especially sensitive to being any kind of a PIA when I go into a store, restaurant or anywhere else for that matter.

    The more of this crap that goes on, the less inclined I am to patronize any shops or ask for any work.

    I hope the rents on 1st or 2nd street, whatever it is, get raised really soon.



  4. #4
    The Silver Hammer emayex's Avatar
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    im gonna have to go with peripatetic on this one....it seems that most shop people have some serious attitude issues

    which only drives me to online shops like nashbar....when i find a shop with good guys....i am very loyal....but that almost never happens...

  5. #5
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    Did you let them know what size spacers you needed ? 1mm, 3mm, 5mm. Spacers come in different sizes so maybe he just didn't want to waist his time and money but than again maybe they don't deal with conversions to often so they wouldn't have the need for spacers in the shop.

    Just my thought.

    Tony
    I only drink on two occasions ... when I am alone and when I am with some one.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by peripatetic
    I asked my girlfriend when we left if I gave any kind of bad vibe off, and she said no. Her comment to me came before I said anything after we left the shop.

    that's like asking your mom if she thinks you're cool.

    and...you changed the cones? why would you need to do that, unless they were damaged? and even then, you wouldn't have put any single speed specific cones in a hub that was meant for a road bike. i've just never heard of an aftermarket cone for a road hub that was deemed "single speed only."

    ANYWAY....

    if you measure the chainline on the bike (from center of the seat tube to the center of the chainrings), you can very easily figure out how many spacers you need on your axle to achieve the proper chianline, if you also know the rear spacing of the frame you're using. i.e: 126mm spacing, 41mm chainline, center of the hub at the centerline of the bike leaves you with 63mm to the dropout, 63-41=22mm of space on either side of the hub (assuming it's symmetrical) to the dropout. you subtract the distance from the center of the cog to the outside edge of the hubshell from the 22mm, and the width of your locknut and bam, you get the number of spacers for the drive side. if your hub isn't symmetrical, or it's center-ideal chainline doesn't match up with your frame's, then you just measure 41mm from the center of the cog toward the inside of the hub, and where ever that 41mm is on the hubshell is where the centerline of your frame will fall, so then you measure 63mm from that point on the hub, and you basically do the same calculations above to figure out how many spacers you need. the numbers are pulled right out of my ass for convenience' sake, but plug in any true to life numbers and it'll work. you can match the bottom bracket length/crankset to a hub, or vice versa. you just have to be strong in the rudimentary math.

    you don't need to see the wheel in the frame if you have the measurements handy and can communicate them. all that takes a little less than 5 minutes with a dial caliper and calculator. granted, the trackstar guy probably wouldn't have done that, because he sounds like a lazy oaf, i'm just saying, you can figure out the right number of spacers without seeing the frame. hell, you don't even need the frame if you know what crankset, chainrings and bottom bracket you're using.

  7. #7
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    I love my LBS. They're not *******s.

    Peri, come to Boston sometime, and I'll buy you some spacers or something and take you to a real LBS, OK? Boston is only a $10 chinatown bus ride away!

    I'm serious.
    Last edited by BostonFixed; 07-30-05 at 11:30 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member pharnabazos's Avatar
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    I had a bad experience at Trackstar, and I never went back. Similar type of thing, wouldn't just sell me a 16t cog when he found out I was doing a conversion, all sorts of "suicide hub" nonsense, hard sell, condescension, the whole nine yards. Eventually convinced him, and he gave me the wrong size. I didn't bother going back because of the 'tude.

    I've kept mum because the people on this forum like trackstar, but it sounds familiar.

  9. #9
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    I am not taking sides but conversions are a tough case. You can help someone with a fixed conversion but if something happens then the first person they are going to blame is the bike shop they went to. I am sure that it is a liability that many bike shops don't want to deal with. You are essentially converting a bike to something which is not its intended purpose.

    Trackstar deals with track bikes. I think that is well established. If you are dealing with conversions, you should seek out bike shops who are willing to help you with such a task. Honestly, if I owned a bike shop, I would not deal with conversions unless I had a mechanic who has done conversions for several years prior on many different makes and models.

    I am sorry to hear about your experience at Trackstar but if you know the part that you need and know how to work on your bike, then ordering the part online is a minor inconvenience.

  10. #10
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    it sounds like these guys are pretty lame, and have some serious biases...they probably won't last too long if they only sell stuff to "true road-trackies."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chimpo
    Trackstar deals with track bikes. I think that is well established.
    I want to retract this quote since I am not completely certain that Trackstar does not deal with fixed conversions.

    OneTinSloth: You are a mechanic and you are definitely extremely helpful and knowledgeable about bike repair. Are you confident in selling someone that part which you know will be used for a safe or unsafe fixed conversion? If you do the repair yourself, it is a different case. But, if you are not working on the bike yourself are you liable by selling that part knowing that it may be the wrong solution?

  12. #12
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    if the shop doesn't do the work, then the shop isn't liable. we can sell a part, but if we're not installing it, then we're not responsible for what happens after it leaves our shop. if the part fails, it's a manufacturer warranty issue, if it was improper use or installation, then it's on whoever worked on it.

  13. #13
    Senior Member peripatetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneTinSloth
    that's like asking your mom if she thinks you're cool.


    Whatever, man. Maybe you actually have asked your mom if you were cool. I wasn't asking her for validation, I was just asking her if it seemed like maybe I had done anything to piss the Dude off. Trust me, she's more than happy to tell me when I'm out of line with a stranger, hasn't hesitated to do it on many occasions. In my world a girlfriend's definitely NOT an adoring sycophant.

    Just let me reiterate for you: Girlfriend was sitting in the corner, bored out of her a$$ and wanting to leave. She watched the whole interaction, and after we left, she asked, "What happened," because she saw that I didn't get anything. "I don't know," was my original response. That's when she made her comment about the 'tude. Then I told her I really didn't get it, and she waited while I went back to attempt to straighten it out and just get the damn spacers. I came back out without the damn spacers.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneTinSloth

    and...you changed the cones? why would you need to do that, unless they were damaged? and even then, you wouldn't have put any single speed specific cones in a hub that was meant for a road bike. i've just never heard of an aftermarket cone for a road hub that was deemed "single speed only."


    No, I didn't. I did nothing to the cones. I can't just move the original spacer, because it's huge. I wanted to get a variety of spacers so I would not have to realize that I was a mm or two off, then go back. Tom Deakins' advice makes sense about this. An hour roundtrip or more from Brooklyn to Trackstar means that it's just better to have extra.



    Quote Originally Posted by OneTinSloth


    ANYWAY....

    if you measure the chainline on the bike (from center of the seat tube to the center of the chainrings), you can very easily figure out how many spacers you need on your axle to achieve the proper chianline, if you also know the rear spacing of the frame you're using. i.e: 126mm spacing, 41mm chainline, center of the hub at the centerline of the bike leaves you with 63mm to the dropout, 63-41=22mm of space on either side of the hub (assuming it's symmetrical) to the dropout. you subtract the distance from the center of the cog to the outside edge of the hubshell from the 22mm, and the width of your locknut and bam, you get the number of spacers for the drive side. if your hub isn't symmetrical, or it's center-ideal chainline doesn't match up with your frame's, then you just measure 41mm from the center of the cog toward the inside of the hub, and where ever that 41mm is on the hubshell is where the centerline of your frame will fall, so then you measure 63mm from that point on the hub, and you basically do the same calculations above to figure out how many spacers you need. the numbers are pulled right out of my ass for convenience' sake, but plug in any true to life numbers and it'll work. you can match the bottom bracket length/crankset to a hub, or vice versa. you just have to be strong in the rudimentary math.


    I graduated college with a bachelor's degree in Pure Mathematics. I got the math, even the rudimentary stuff. I know how to add and subtract, even bigger than two-digit numbers. Heck, I even know how to carry and use the distributive property. If you'd like, we can move over to foo and discuss abstract algebra, knot theory or non-Euclidean geometry. Do you work for a bike shop? You're condescending rhetoric is ringing remarkably familiar.



    Quote Originally Posted by onetinsloth
    you don't need to see the wheel in the frame if you have the measurements handy and can communicate them.

    Agreed. But it's just a lot easier to be able to go to a backup when you realize that the 2mm really should be a three or 4. Besides, I got the chainline right, the problem is simply that I need to fill a small 2/3mm gap between the cone and the non-drive-side axle nut. See, I got some spacers at Bikeworks, but they just didn't have enough.

    As far as communication, I also agree, and I believe that that was the main problem. But unlike me, the fellow really had no interest in attempting to improve the communication.



    Quote Originally Posted by onetinsloth
    all that takes a little less than 5 minutes with a dial caliper and calculator.

    Again, agreed.
    Unfortunately, I'm using a ruler and my bad eyes. I trust the math, just not the potential for parallax-induced measurement error. Again, why I'd rather just get a small collection of spacers.



    Quote Originally Posted by OneTinSloth
    granted, the trackstar guy probably wouldn't have done that, because he sounds like a lazy oaf, i'm just saying, you can figure out the right number of spacers without seeing the frame. hell, you don't even need the frame if you know what crankset, chainrings and bottom bracket you're using.

    I'm using the road crankset that came with this beater bike, sugino vp. Don't know the BB nor am I sure of what the chainrings are, other than the road ones. All of this is true, and great advice for dealing with the problem of getting the chainline right, but don't you think the easiest solution is really to just ask for a bunch of smaller spacers, which is what I did? And Tony, I agree with you, and I originally asked for some 1-4mm spacers. That was my original request. I just don't buy the "he was trying to help you by saving you money argument." I've never had any LBS employee in the city express any concern for my wallet when it came to shelling out money for anything else, why would someone be trying to save me no more than a few dollars on some extremely small parts?

    More like looking to get more money out of me. I go into the shop with the bike, say, "hey, can you help me get the spacers for the chainline," the guy looks at it in the back, finds the right spacers, puts them on, then comes out and charges me what, 5, ten bucks in labor plus a couple bucks for the parts? Again, come on!

    I've been into Trackstar before, and some other Dude who helped me was alright, but nothing to rave about. I don't dress like a hipster or a messenger, I don't have a slick-looking track bike, and I'm not particularly athletic looking. If I were to evaluate my appearance based on what an average LBS employee sees, it's an average, uneducated customer who should be doing nothing other than forking over cash to change his innertube or buy a really slick pair of expensive biking shoes. I think I look like an easy target. And I think that when I start opening my mouth and exhibiting a streak of independent thought, it pisses some of the elitist ****** off, and makes them feel like putting me back in my place. And so I turn around, shuffle off and try and figure out for the umpteenth time how I managed to tease out the crap side of yet another one.

    B-Fixed, at this rate, I might have to just move up to Boston. Lord knows I'd cut back on my cost of living. Heck, I already hate the Yankees.



  14. #14
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    Yes shops in nYc have jacked up attitudes but for the issue in the original post . You just don't sell anybody spacers for any wheel you haven't seen.

    What type of spacers ? What type of wheel? What kind of axle? If it was that easy it would be a standard.



    If your trash get messed up, they are now liable for their mistake.


    It looks like as stated before that they wanted to make sure they gave you the correct trash.

    Regardless what the site stated you are not dealing with the person who wrote the article for the site.

    S/F,
    CEYA!

  15. #15
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    most shop employees i know (myself included) are usually pretty happy when a customer exhibits even the tiniest bit of knowledge about working on their own bikes. we're not condescending at my shop, and we're not a bunch of *******s, we come in, we do our jobs. if someone is wrong about something, or we don't quite get what they're saying because they don't articulate it properly, then we say something like "bring it in so i can look at it." and believe me, about a quarter of my job is trying to figure out what "the thing and the thing are rubbing and it's making this awful noise" or, "something down there is out of adjustment and it's not shifting well into third and fourth," means, while spending twice as long as it normally would trying to figure out what exactly it is that they're talking about. so yeah, we generally do appreciate it when someone comes in as says "my front derailleur is out of adjustment, and the chain is rubbing on it." because then all we have to do is write the ticket up and send them on their way, which saves them money, because when someone doesn't know the terminology, and we're getting slammed, the best thing we can do is write their ticket for a $75 tune and hope we fix whatever it is they had a problem with. so yeah, we damn well do like it when someone knows what they're talking about, because it helps us help them better. we put on clinics where we answer any questions a customer has about repairs to help them do it themselves if they need to. when a customer has a question about something, anything in the middle of an estimate, we answer it and we do it politely.

    i'm sorry you had a bad experience with trackstar, but in all honesty, any shop ridiculously steeped in image and posing enough to call themselves "trackstar" isn't going to offer the best customer service in the world. the places where you'll find the best service have names like "bicycle bill's," or "Mel's," or "cambridge bikes." places that have an old school guy (who i sold school by virtue of actually having ridden a bike with 5-speed friction shifting when that's all there was) at the bike stand, a guy who knows everything but doesn't need flaunt it and make people feel tiny because they don't, small places that don't have pretensions about who they are and what they do, because at the end of the day, you're just a guy working in a bike shop, getting greasy and drinking beer. i would never go into a place called "trackstar." the name itself reeks of snobbery and pretensiousness.

    i don't think the easiest way to do it is to just get a bunch of smaller spacers and slap everything together, because then you run into the problem you're having now, with not having enough of them. you measure it out and get the right number in the right widths and then you don't have to make 10 trips around the five boroughs hunting them down.

  16. #16
    Not Badass, it's Tim. BadAssBiker's Avatar
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    This is starting to seem odd to me. Trust me, I understand attitude and costs of going to shops in NYC. Racking my brain, I can't think of one I go to that treats me badly. Bikeworks, Trackstar, Velo, Both Larry and Jeff's uptown, Chelsea, Metro on 88th, and even Frank's.

    I don't feel I have ever been taken for a ride, or talked down to. Maybe I am just lucky.

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    I graduated college with a bachelor's degree in Pure Mathematics.

    perhaps you should've gotten it in applied mathematics instead.

    wait, so your girlfriend witnessed the entire interaction, but asked you "what happened?" afterwards anyway?

  18. #18
    Senior Member peripatetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceya
    Yes shops in nYc have jacked up attitudes but for the issue in the original post . You just don't sell anybody spacers for any wheel you haven't seen.

    What type of spacers ? What type of wheel? What kind of axle? If it was that easy it would be a standard.



    If your trash get messed up, they are now liable for their mistake.


    It looks like as stated before that they wanted to make sure they gave you the correct trash.

    Regardless what the site stated you are not dealing with the person who wrote the article for the site.

    S/F,
    CEYA!


    Totally disagree. No one is going to be liable for selling the wrong axle spacers. And if there were an accident traceable to the spacers (which is well-nigh impossible), then it would be the spacer manufacturer who would be liable.

    It's a spacer. There is no liability that comes from selling a spacer. If I walk into a shop and ask for a hammer, and the guy sells it to me, he's not liable if I knock you dead with it. As long as the sale is legal and the item is not regulated, you're not going to be liable.

    25/50-cent spacers are not anything that requires looking at. Maybe I just wanted them to make some damn DIY jewelry. I didn't ask for help or advice, I just asked for some spacers.

    HE WAS NOT LIABLE FOR ANYTHING.


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssBiker
    This is starting to seem odd to me. Trust me, I understand attitude and costs of going to shops in NYC. Racking my brain, I can't think of one I go to that treats me badly. Bikeworks, Trackstar, Velo, Both Larry and Jeff's uptown, Chelsea, Metro on 88th, and even Frank's.

    I don't feel I have ever been taken for a ride, or talked down to. Maybe I am just lucky.
    i bet it's because you have a kickass screen name.

  20. #20
    Not Badass, it's Tim. BadAssBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peripatetic

    HE WAS NOT LIABLE FOR ANYTHING.
    or maybe he was just looking out for you.

  21. #21
    cxmagazine dot com pitboss's Avatar
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    Maybe it is not just the bike shop here. I have heard mech's ask similar things, and no one ever argued.

    I can't wait to see part III. Freedom of choice is a two way.
    Deathlap - cyclocross, training, beer,...escape hatch

  22. #22
    Senior Member peripatetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneTinSloth
    most shop employees i know (myself included) are usually pretty happy when a customer exhibits even the tiniest bit of knowledge about working on their own bikes. we're not condescending at my shop, and we're not a bunch of *******s, we come in, we do our jobs. if someone is wrong about something, or we don't quite get what they're saying because they don't articulate it properly, then we say something like "bring it in so i can look at it." and believe me, about a quarter of my job is trying to figure out what "the thing and the thing are rubbing and it's making this awful noise" or, "something down there is out of adjustment and it's not shifting well into third and fourth," means, while spending twice as long as it normally would trying to figure out what exactly it is that they're talking about. so yeah, we generally do appreciate it when someone comes in as says "my front derailleur is out of adjustment, and the chain is rubbing on it." because then all we have to do is write the ticket up and send them on their way, which saves them money, because when someone doesn't know the terminology, and we're getting slammed, the best thing we can do is write their ticket for a $75 tune and hope we fix whatever it is they had a problem with. so yeah, we damn well do like it when someone knows what they're talking about, because it helps us help them better. we put on clinics where we answer any questions a customer has about repairs to help them do it themselves if they need to. when a customer has a question about something, anything in the middle of an estimate, we answer it and we do it politely.

    i'm sorry you had a bad experience with trackstar, but in all honesty, any shop ridiculously steeped in image and posing enough to call themselves "trackstar" isn't going to offer the best customer service in the world. the places where you'll find the best service have names like "bicycle bill's," or "Mel's," or "cambridge bikes." places that have an old school guy (who i sold school by virtue of actually having ridden a bike with 5-speed friction shifting when that's all there was) at the bike stand, a guy who knows everything but doesn't need flaunt it and make people feel tiny because they don't, small places that don't have pretensions about who they are and what they do, because at the end of the day, you're just a guy working in a bike shop, getting greasy and drinking beer. i would never go into a place called "trackstar." the name itself reeks of snobbery and pretensiousness.

    i don't think the easiest way to do it is to just get a bunch of smaller spacers and slap everything together, because then you run into the problem you're having now, with not having enough of them. you measure it out and get the right number in the right widths and then you don't have to make 10 trips around the five boroughs hunting them down.



    Good points and well said. I'm still looking for a "non-pretentious" shop in NYC. Fashion is everything here.

    At least my rant is tapped. I really just don't care anymore. Cynicism and apathy win.

    I'm going to start scouring over the crappy old wheels I've scavenged off of the streets for the 4mm I have left to fill.

    This afternoon, I walked into a shop looking for something more basic than a nut or a screw, and walked out with less than nothing. Yet again, I encountered general mean-spiritedness in a NYC bike shop.

    That's frustrating.

    Sleep well.


  23. #23
    Senior Member smurfy's Avatar
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    Do you know if any of thes NYC shops need a friendly mid-westerner to workfor them? I really miss wrenching at a bike shop! My wife was raised in the NYC boroughs (and hates Ohio) so I'm not unfamiliar with them.
    "You handle it like you handle a bicycle" - Jacques Rosay, Airbus A380 test pilot

  24. #24
    Senior Member pharnabazos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peripatetic


    Good points and well said. I'm still looking for a "non-pretentious" shop in NYC. Fashion is everything here.


    I don't know where you live but I go to a grimy little shop where all the delivery guys take their bikes--Champion Bikes between 103-4th on Amsterdam. Metro on 96th is friendly but those same spacers would've cost you ~ $2 apiece there.

  25. #25
    ganbatte! sashae's Avatar
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    I've been incredibly happy with my experiences at Toga (64/WEA)... really nice folks. Weird that there's so much attitude out there tho.

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