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  1. #1
    while my car gently weeps kennethalan's Avatar
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    Go voice your opinion on a (possible) Masi Track Bike.

    This is one of the big shots at the new Masi apparently. He is asking for input/comments/etc. on a new Masi Fixed Gear/Track Bike.

    http://masiguy.blogspot.com/2005/11/...and-fixie.html

    Remember: You want track geometry, Lugged Steel, High End Tubing, and a $100 price tag. We deserve it.

  2. #2
    Retrogrouch in Training bostontrevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethalan
    Remember: You want track geometry, Lugged Steel, High End Tubing, and a $100 price tag. We deserve it.
    Funny... that's not what I said.

  3. #3
    Tim Jackson- Masiguy
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    Quote Originally Posted by bostontrevor
    Funny... that's not what I said.
    You guys are killing me!

    Too funny... $100 for lugs... ok, maybe the lugs for that much.

    Thanks for this post and please keep the comments coming. I greatly appreciate it. Honestly. I love the "bigshot" title too. I think I'll try and get that on my new business cards.

    Here is the plan I have;
    A complete steel bike with good tubing and a reasonable parts mix so that it isn't expensive. It'll look like an older Masi and will have real-deal track dropouts. The geometry will be a little less aggressive than a full-race bike so that it can be a good bike to ride on the road as well as a first track race bike. Then I'll also do a full-race aluminum frame and carbon fork. I've been racing the protoype this year and it absolutely rocks! No kiddin', it rides great. You can see images on my blog if you check through the old posts... sorry, I can't remember where to send you exactly.

    So the cat is partially out of the bag.

    Tim Jackson
    Brand Manager/ Bigshot
    Masi Bicycles

  4. #4
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    I will reply to your post.

    S/F,
    CEYA!

  5. #5
    (((Fully Awake))) Serendipper's Avatar
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    Just get the frame right...keep the price competitive, and we'll fill in the blanks.
    Classic colourway is a must if you want to bring back the mark!
    (Went to the local lbs today before I found this thread and thought why don't they...?
    Now I'm like, I hope they get it right! Good Luck!)
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  6. #6
    Retrogrouch in Training bostontrevor's Avatar
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    Masiguy, sounds good. I still say don't forget to bring up the bottom bracket. There are plenty of options out there that do just what you say (though honestly none with the cachet of the Masi name), but they all make the critical mistake of leaving the BB drop road deep. There are also several introductory true track bikes (the Bianchi Pista is a great example), so I'm wonder how easy that market would be to penetrate.

    Nobody seems to have nailed the proper fixed-for-the-road market, in my opinion. I did a lot of shopping around before deciding to go custom because I couldn't quite find the right mix.

    But maybe that's just me.

  7. #7
    Crapzeit! mcatano's Avatar
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    Masiguy,

    A sensible approach might be to look at the most succesful offering that you'd be competing against (Bianchi's Pista), incorporate what it does well (marque with cachet, true track geometry, affordable price tag, usable for track or street) and fix its shortcomings (ugly fork, less than stellar components). If you could do that without making the price skyrocket you'd probably have a bike that would sell. You probably won't be able to offer a better bike for less money than the Pista, but you certainly could offer a different, more desirable bike for not-too-much-more mney that people would spend the extra on. If you could sell something for a few hundred dollars more than a Pista that had lugs, formula hubs and sugino 75s you'd definitely have a bike that appealed to most (definitely not all, but certainly the majority) of the people who frequent this forum. Essentially, something like a DeBarnardi built up with mid-level components.

    Basically, I'd have no real interest in buying a Masi like you've described above for the same reason I've got no interest in buying an IRO, Surly or Kogswell. They're all fantastic bikes, but just not what I'm really interested in. All you have to do is skip through the pictures sticky and you'll see that people here tend to get worked up over lugs and steep angles.

    I think most of us types are a lot more likely to get pangs of lust for a no-compromises, old school track bike than for a street/FG/track hybrid. Add the Masi name to it and you've got something. IRO, Surly and Kogswell already do the street-fix thing really well, so why not offer something different? Another thing to consider: the fixed gear bubble will burst sooner than later and you'll have put a lot of time and effort into developing a bike that you'll no longer be able to sell enough of to be viable. Track racing isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and if you make an actual, classic track frame it's something you'll be able to keep in your catalog for years to come. There is always going to be a place for lugged steel at the velodrome.

    yrs
    m.

  8. #8
    GG + Wendy O. 4EVA raygunner's Avatar
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    No holes for brakes.

    YES!

  9. #9
    Matthew Grimm / Flunky Kogswell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcatano
    Masiguy,

    A sensible approach might be to look at the most succesful offering that you'd be competing against (Bianchi's Pista), incorporate what it does well (marque with cachet, true track geometry, affordable price tag, usable for track or street) and fix its shortcomings (ugly fork, less than stellar components). If you could do that without making the price skyrocket you'd probably have a bike that would sell. You probably won't be able to offer a better bike for less money than the Pista, but you certainly could offer a different, more desirable bike for not-too-much-more mney that people would spend the extra on. If you could sell something for a few hundred dollars more than a Pista that had lugs, formula hubs and sugino 75s you'd definitely have a bike that appealed to most (definitely not all, but certainly the majority) of the people who frequent this forum. Essentially, something like a DeBarnardi built up with mid-level components.

    Basically, I'd have no real interest in buying a Masi like you've described above for the same reason I've got no interest in buying an IRO, Surly or Kogswell. They're all fantastic bikes, but just not what I'm really interested in. All you have to do is skip through the pictures sticky and you'll see that people here tend to get worked up over lugs and steep angles.

    I think most of us types are a lot more likely to get pangs of lust for a no-compromises, old school track bike than for a street/FG/track hybrid. Add the Masi name to it and you've got something. IRO, Surly and Kogswell already do the street-fix thing really well, so why not offer something different? Another thing to consider: the fixed gear bubble will burst sooner than later and you'll have put a lot of time and effort into developing a bike that you'll no longer be able to sell enough of to be viable. Track racing isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and if you make an actual, classic track frame it's something you'll be able to keep in your catalog for years to come. There is always going to be a place for lugged steel at the velodrome.

    Word.

    Bring something that isn't available.

  10. #10
    Yay!11! I has!!!1 ImOnCrank's Avatar
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    A hint of fear in that post matt? Not to worry, I doubt Masi and Kogswell are going for the same audience. Both wonderful bikes though.
    Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...

  11. #11
    I'm Carbon Curious 531phile's Avatar
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    From what I hear, modern production bicycles and lugs don't belong in the same sentence since it is not cost effective. TIG welding is heck of a lot cheaper.

    I think Masiguy already know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by avner View Post
    I loled. Twice. Then I cried. Then I rubbed one out and cried again, but thanks for sharing.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
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    You guys are frame makers: make the best one you can. I have plenty of track parts, so the Suzue basics laced to someone's rims are coming right off the bike and onto eBay anyway.
    Since Bianchi has already been mentioned, let me chime in: by all means imitate their policy in the 80's. They used one frame for their top three road frames (Columbus SL). The difference in price was due to the component mix. I was in my twenties then, and was always short of money, so I bought the cheapest one, with Gipiemme parts, and changed them over time for Campagnolo. You can always upgrade the components; you are stuck with whatever the frame is made of. Ignore the temptation to provide parts with "Masi" printed/silkscreened on them. For that matter, avoid low-end Asian stuff: we already know too much about it, and very little of it good. Campagnolo is not the only company in Europe making track stuff. Spec'ing Euro-stuff is an easy way to make your bike stand out. On second thought, maybe Masi branded hubs and cranks made by Sachs/Miche/Gipiemme would be OK. Just don't use the cheapest stuff they make. To be sure, I've made lots of $$ and/or gotten gallons of free beer by repairing/replacing low-end crap for guys, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a positive experience for the poor b@st@rd who was stuck with it.
    Think really hard about lugged steel. If you can produce a frame that is NJS/Keirin qualified, you will sell a lot more frames worldwide, and will keep the per-unit cost down, which will help out us non-sponsored track addicts.
    High BB, steep angles, ie, a real track frame. There are plenty of road bikes with track ends out there already. Fit the frame with brake holes, but also supply the frames with frame-colored plugs for those who will use it on the track, as well as for those who are convinced of their immortality. Toss in some removable cable guides for those of us who want brakes. (I'm 48, ride a fix, live in NYC. You don't get to middle age doing that by thinking nothing can hurt you.)
    Put some of those cool stainless liners on the rear dropouts, regardless of frame material. When they get all messed up, they can be replaced. Much easier than having to file/sand out most of the damage and having to repaint the rear triangle. Not to mention the whole replace-the-dropouts-entirely torture.
    Whatever you do in terms of an actual bicycle, please remember that you aren't just any maker. You're Masi. Produce a frame worthy of the name. Columbus, Reynolds, and not the low-end tubing either. There might be a temporary spike in fixed-gear sales going on right now, but you need to realize that the frames you make today will still be around in twenty years. Look around eBay/Craigslist, and see what an old Cinelli or a Reparto Corse Bianchi goes for. Or a 1985 3V, speaking of old high-end frames.
    ...just say shimaNO

  13. #13
    Tim Jackson- Masiguy
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    Lots and lots of good points all over the place. So let me address them in a couple of comments.

    Lugs; Well, I'd love to. However, lugs and lugged construction automatically means more money... sometimes a heck of a lot more money. Still, I do hope to offer a lugged track frame at some point. It may end up being a classic reproduction of a 60's era Special (like the one in the pictures posted earlier here). It is my plan to do a vintage frame reproduction every year. Full production of lugged frames would mean a couple of things- either a very expensive frame or a very crappy frame.
    Steep, "true track" geometries; the aluminum frame will definitely be full-race geometries. The steel complete bike might have to remain in the middle of the road. I look at the Bianchi as being more in the middle, personally. The geometry is capable of being ridden on the track, but isn't a frame I'd personally want to race a Keirin on.
    Braze-ons/ brake drilling; I'm personally torn on this one. I'd love to say that it will not have any of either, but it might have some or all. Here's the honest deal- not only do I want to add this bike to the line because I personally race track, but I also need/want to sell more bikes. Reality would seem to suggest that a bike with the greatest amount of broader market appeal would be a bike with braze-ons, bottle mounts and cable guides, as well as a high bottom bracket with conservative geometry.

    In an ideal world, folks, I'd have a full-on retro lugged frame, a basic steel race frame, a road fixie frame and then the aluminum high-zoot race frame. How close to an ideal world am I in? Not quite ideal enough... but something good is coming though. I promise that much.

    Masiguy

  14. #14
    knucklehead roscoenyc57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masiguy
    Lots and lots of good points all over the place. So let me address them in a couple of comments.


    Braze-ons/ brake drilling; I'm personally torn on this one. I'd love to say that it will not have any of either, but it might have some or all. Here's the honest deal- not only do I want to add this bike to the line because I personally race track, but I also need/want to sell more bikes. Reality would seem to suggest that a bike with the greatest amount of broader market appeal would be a bike with braze-ons, bottle mounts and cable guides, as well as a high bottom bracket with conservative geometry.


    Masiguy
    On the steel frame......for both road and track...

    front drilling. maybe bottle mounts...
    deffinately no cable shoulder scraping guides!!

  15. #15
    Yay!11! I has!!!1 ImOnCrank's Avatar
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    Just a point of reference question, how many bikes are you putting out this year? You've mentioned the steel roadfix and the alu track. That it?
    Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masiguy
    It may end up being a classic reproduction of a 60's era Special (like the one in the pictures posted earlier here). It is my plan to do a vintage frame reproduction every year.
    i have the lugs here, in stock, in case that project ever goes forward.
    shoot me an email if you're keen!
    e-RICHIE©™®

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walkercycles
    I want a couple sets....

    DW

    you have a couple of sets...

  18. #18
    Retrogrouch in Training bostontrevor's Avatar
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    I think a set of parallel 73s are good on the angles. Not so long ago, that wasn't uncommon for track bikes. You can still find really expensive track bikes with angles along those lines. Maybe they're not the bike you want for a 1k TT or pursuit but so it goes.

    Go with cable stops on bands like what Raleigh's doing with the Rush Hour. Even if people here don't want brakes, the average person does, at least to start out with.

    TIG is fine. Sure, lugs are sexy and have their appeal to the bike snob, but Joe Schmoe on the street who's looking at this as his first properly designed fixed gear bike is concerned about the bottom line. That means welded. There's no proven technical reason to prefer lugs. At this point it's strictly looks.

    I like the idea of brake hole pasties. You can almost have your cake and eat it too.

    I'll still push for eyelets and braze-ons. They are minor aesthetic imperfections and I'll point out that again that many club/track/path racers of yore featured them without bringing death and destruction upon their riders on the road or the velodrome. Maybe sacrifice the rack braze-ons as those are both the most egregious offenders as well as least likely to be used. (IMHO)

    I think the market for keirin and classic Italian track frames is just that. People want a vintage frame with some soul and I'm not convinced that a new off-the-peg mass-produced bike is going to satisfy that. I think the value-conscious as well as the utilitarian fixed gear rider will be drawn to an offering that's reasonably agile and responsive without sacrificing practicality.

    But then I like old Bridgestone bikes.

    I do think it's rad that you've figured out that there's a way to get directly in touch with your market to understand what it is people are looking for. Good on you.

    Anyhow, I think I'm beating a dead horse at this point so I'll shut up.
    Last edited by bostontrevor; 11-13-05 at 06:05 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bostontrevor
    text snipped: ...but Joe Schmoe on the street who's looking at this as his first properly designed fixed gear bike is concerned about the bottom line.

    you really need to define this; is the project targeted at
    track riding or simply at fixed gear riding around town?
    for a grand marque like masi, i see the tie-in with the
    velodrome as the first line of defense.
    e-RICHIE©™®

  20. #20
    Retrogrouch in Training bostontrevor's Avatar
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    True, and I meant to mention that. What I've read from Masiguy suggests that this is another intro-aimed fixed gear bike a la the Bianchi Pista, Fuji Track, Raleigh Rush Hour, Specialized Langster, etc, etc. It's a reasonable bike for the value-conscious LBS shopper, not trackies, not the well-heeled custom or high-zoot shopper.

    I just don't think there's a huge untapped track racing market. It's an established market and there you compete mostly on the basis of quality (at least until you get into the silly expensive realm--lugs are not silly expensive). In the first "real" bike market you compete on the basis of value for the dollar.

  21. #21
    Yay!11! I has!!!1 ImOnCrank's Avatar
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    Yeah, since when did Masi become Joe Schmoes grocery getter brand? Masi is a helluva brand with a history and a style. Don't scrap that so quickly.
    Bloodstains, speed kills, fast bikes, cheap thrills, French girls, fine wine...

  22. #22
    Senior Member eddiebrannan's Avatar
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    go meta on breaking away: make a masi little 500 replica

  23. #23
    (((Fully Awake))) Serendipper's Avatar
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    It's not about scrapping the brand for this guy. I think Tim made it pretty darn clear that there will be no Masi without profits, so if we want to see a Track Speciale with authentic chrome lugs in that baby blu, then sacrifices have to be made. I'm going through the same cost/quality battles with my design co. (naturesquedesignlabs.com),
    and I had to make some hard decisions concerning offering entry level product to get the boat ashore. Like the man said, in an ideal world, anything is possible. I say pay the bills with a Bianchi fighter, then give us the real deal with all the trimmings in a limited re-issue that's picture perfect in 2007. I will be the first in line, as it's been a dream of mine to ride one of those blue beauties!
    Last edited by Serendipper; 11-13-05 at 07:36 PM.
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  24. #24
    Dirty Creature GoJavs's Avatar
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    There are very few brands with the history and following of Masi, however, ImOnCrank, you might have missed this but the Masi of the last several years has not been THAT Masi. Gotta give a lot of credit to Masiguy for working towards turning out models with a nod to that history/tradition.

    I say, it's about time!
    GoJavs
    Steel? BIkes? Brilliant!

  25. #25
    Matthew Grimm / Flunky Kogswell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImOnCrank
    A hint of fear in that post matt? Not to worry, I doubt Masi and Kogswell are going for the same audience. Both wonderful bikes though.
    I think you answered your own question.

    The domains of Kogswell owners and new Masi Owners don't intersect much. That'd be my guess.

    Heck, the domains of Old Masi owners and new Masi Owners don't intersect much.

    Right?

    I'd love to see Masi become a threat; for that to happen buyers would have to become interested in Masis w/ Kogswell-like attributes. Which would I would see as healthy.

    This is Masi playing catch up.

    The interesting question is whether people will stay interested in FG/SS. I hope they do. FG/SS bikes tend to go to serious cyclists and I'm hoping the current interest is powered by people using them, not posing with them.

    Kogswell customers seem to be a pretty high-milage bunch. As do IRO, Bianchi and Surly owners. I think those of us in the low-cost rhelm attact the serious.

    Ever notice the inverse relationship between bike cost and leg fitness?

    <wink>

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